VA Shooting – Couple of Questions
First, I saw on the snooze last night that the shooter had been adjudicated mentally defective by a judge and ordered to go to padded land. Now, I’m not sure how the National Instant Check System works but shouldn’t something like that show up on a background check? Heck, a number of years ago when I was a federal contractor and had a Q Level Security Clearance (it expired when I left), I’d always set off the NICS or TICS when I bought a gun. Same thing each time: They’d call, there’d be a hold up on the other end. Gun store clerk would say: they said they’ll call back. They’d call back in ten to thirty minutes. If that gets a blip, why wouldn’t such adjudication?
Second, the next day, the Feds knew where the shooter got the gun. How did that happen since the anti-gunners tell us that law enforcement has no access to gun trace data?
Update: See? And Terry asks:
Will Mayor Haslam continue to maintain his membership in Bloomberg’s group when the timing of this campaign is clearly geared towards weakening the 2nd amendment?
Update 2: Brisbane Times:
However, Harvey Baker, the director of ACCESS, an independent community mental health service that evaluated Cho in December 2005 at the request of the university, said staff advised at the time that a temporary restraining order be issued against him.
That wording is a bit odd. I have not found yet whether a restraining order was issued. Only that one was requested. If there was, that would also disqualify him from purchasing a gun.
Update 3: Ask, and you shall receive. In comments, Rustmeister answers:
I was wondering the same, heard this morning that they go into NICS only if they are committed against their will. In Cho’s case, he decided not to go into the Nervous Hospital, and the judge ruled in favor of outpatient treatment.
As for the restraining order, that wouldn’t show unless he was charged with a domestic. He never was.
April 19th, 2007 at 9:50 am
Well, it’s like this … some folks decided that the right to privacy for mental patients trumps the need keep the public safe from the dangerous ones. That comes from the same thought process that decided that the mentally ill should not be forced to accept treatment and confinement, even if they are a danger to themselves and/or others. Just by coincidence, the folks that think all that is just fine and dandy are pretty much the same ones that want to take away the rights of the citizenry to protect themselves with guns.
Go figure, eh?
April 19th, 2007 at 9:55 am
I’ve also been hearing that Cho had a restraining order taken out against him. Doesn’t that invoke the Lautenberg Amendment, which would result in him forfeiting his firearms anyways?
It sure sounds like the system failed on many levels. Which, of course, means that the usual suspects will want to “do it again, only harder” and make the system even more onerous for the rest of us…
April 19th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Here’s how a trace works:
Podunk PD calls the ATF with the gun’s serial number. The ATF sets the National Tracing Center ball rolling.
They call Blastomatic, Inc. and ask where they shipped gun with serial # XYZ123. Blastomatic checks their records and says “We shipped that one to Rillybig Wholesale on June 12th of last year.”
Rillybig Wholesale gets a call from the NTC. They say “We sent it to Corner Gun Store on July 17th.”
Corner Gun Store gets a call. “Hmmm. I sold it to a ‘Fred Smith’ on August 23rd. Here’s his address and driver’s license number. He didn’t leave his sosh. You want his phone number? I have it in my computer…”
You’d better cool believe that Fred Smith will be getting an interesting phone call.
April 19th, 2007 at 10:20 am
I always get a short delay due to having dual citizenship with the UK and having to put that on the Brady form.
I was told the last time that I couldn’t have been born in England because that country wasn’t on their list. After spending ten minutes arguing with the gun-store clerk that England was a country, and that we spoke “English”, you know, the guys who wore red, with funny hats and stood in lines to shoot, I managed to get him to convince the NICS guy on the phone to accept United Kingdom as an alternative.
That’s like being asked the name of the state you were born in and them settling on “North America”. Upon pain of whatever.
Never had a high opinion of that system…
At least when I get my CCW renewed, it will then mean no more NICS.
April 19th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Yeah, Fred Smith would. One of my friend’s dad got to play that role once. Seems a 44 with an 8 inch barrel that he owned and then traded for a new model a number of years before was used in a DC murder.
April 19th, 2007 at 10:34 am
I was wondering the same, heard this morning that they go into NICS only if they are committed against their will. In Cho’s case, he decided not to go into the Nervous Hospital, and the judge ruled in favor of outpatient treatment.
As for the restraining order, that wouldn’t show unless he was charged with a domestic. He never was.
Slipped through the cracks, all around.
April 19th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Well, as for how they know where he bought the gun, they found the receipt in his bag in his dorm room. They couldn’t trace the guns per se, because the serial numbers were filed off.
April 19th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
A security clearance should not affect a NICS check, and vice versa. What most affects a NICS check is your name. If you have a popular name like John Smith, it returns a lot of hits they need to sort through. If you have an uncommon name like Ludwig Wolfgang Puckentine III, its pretty easy to sort through the results and see that you have no disqualifications.
April 19th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
A Q level clearance would cause a pause. My Q level clearances were for nuclear facilities all over, including Oak Ridge. When that is looked at in regards to a gun purchase, the feds want to do a little more checking to assure themselves the purchaser most probably doesn’t have a hard on for a facility and is going to do something stupid. Probably not unreasonable if we just insist on doing the checks.
I have a very funny true story about this, but today is probably not the time to tell it.
April 19th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
I assume Uncle’s Q level was for Oak Ridge simply because of his proximity.
April 19th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Very interesting. I was wondering about the psychatric stuff and I didn’t find much on the Algore-net.
I’ve never had issue with NICs even with the various DOE and DOD clearances I’ve held. I always figured having a FFL helped.
April 19th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
[…] Say Uncle: First, I saw on the snooze last night that the shooter had been adjudicated mentally defective by a judge and ordered to go to padded land. Now, I’m not sure how the National Instant Check System works but shouldn’t something like that show up on a background check? Heck, a number of years ago when I was a federal contractor and had a Q Level Security Clearance (it expired when I left), I’d always set off the NICS or TICS when I bought a gun. Same thing each time: They’d call, there’d be a hold up on the other end. Gun store clerk would say: they said they’ll call back. They’d call back in ten to thirty minutes. If that gets a blip, why wouldn’t such adjudication? […]
April 19th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
I tried to leave a comment earlier with the relevant portions of Va law code linked, but your site choked on it.
WHat it boils down to is a temporary detainment is not an involuntary committal, so by Va law, he was still legal to possess a gun. There were no slip ups or mistakes. That’s the way the law is written.
April 20th, 2007 at 9:55 am
Rich, couldn’t find your comment in the spam filter. must have disappeared into the ether.
April 20th, 2007 at 9:57 am
[…] this post, there is a lot of info about my questions in […]
April 20th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Second, the next day, the Feds knew where the shooter got the gun. How did that happen since the anti-gunners tell us that law enforcement has no access to gun trace data?
I don’t have as much time for talk today as I have recently, but MSNBC said a couple of days ago that they know where he bought the gun because he still had the receipt. In fact, I think finding that receipt on him and going back to the dealer was part of how they identified him initially.
April 20th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
So he filed off the serial numbers but kept the receipt? Ah, no accounting for crazy people…