More Serpa Derpa
Richard on the Blackhawk Serpa, notes that negligence does not mean the holster is a bad design. And I know he’s serious because he capitalized Blackhawk and used an exclamation point. Ok, kidding aside, I’m torn on this one. I have a Serpa and have carried it some.
On one hand, folks point out that it is a bad design because you have to use your trigger finger to release the retention device. Under stress, you could continue contracting your finger and shoot yourself in the leg. On the other, folks point out that you should train with the holster, like anything else.
On the third hand, is me. It’s a combination. A design is just that. The way something works. Having an issue with a design is one thing. Accepting it another. For instance, I happen to not like a gun with a magazine disconnect safety. I think it’s unnecessary and, should you want to de-cock such a firearm, it adds danger where there shouldn’t be. But it’s something that can be worked around. It does’t mean that I blame a magazine disconnect for my negligent discharge. What I did was use it in a manner the design isn’t meant for. I didn’t use it the way it was supposed to be used.
I think the verdict is still out on the Serpa.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:29 am
Does the lock being blocked by dirt, making it impossible to draw, make it a bad design?
February 10th, 2012 at 10:38 am
That’s a new one to me.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:54 am
I’ve heard of that happening a couple of times. It happened to Brigid.
I use my Serpa when I shoot USPSA and never had a problem with it, but…
Yeah, I can see how someone might curl their finger into the trigger guard on the draw. I guess it depends largely on the weapon, and primarily on training. The “I SHOT MYSELF” guy did it when he transitioned from a Glock in a different retention holster to a 1911 in a Serpa. He had to fvuk up two different ways – flip off the thumb safety AND press the trigger on the draw. My practice is to draw and not drop the safety or put my finger on the trigger until the weapon is pointed downrange.
I’m not all that concerned with shooting myself, but not being able to draw? That’s a different story.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:59 am
Amputate the end off your index finger and then see how well the Serpa works? Especially in haste? (I know, I know, but still…)
All The Best,
Frank W. James
February 10th, 2012 at 11:11 am
When a retention holster is needed, the SERPA is one of the best offered.
My entire MP platoon used them on our last deployment. As to dirt, if you jam enough crap in any holster, there are going to be issues. I believe it is a great holster, offered at a reasonable price. Any one who disagrees is free to do so.
February 10th, 2012 at 11:19 am
There’s also a video floating around somewhere of a guy dropping the holster in some snow, and that was all it took to lock it up. Bad ju-ju, though it’s more likely to happen to a cop than to an average citizen (but still not impossible).
As far as the finger-on-trigger issue, my biggest problem, and the reason I consider it a design flaw, is that it’s a “fail dangerous” arrangement. There are two possible user initiated failure modes: either you can’t draw the pistol (which is how it’s supposed to work), or your finger curls onto the trigger and you shoot yourself.
You can say “train, train, train” all you want, but it’s a simple fact that under sudden and unexpected stress even the most intensive training can fail. The more specific the necessary manipulations are, the more likely the training is to fail in real life, especially if the required manipulation is contrary to the instinctive manipulation of that sort of control (we naturally press buttons with our fingertips, contrary to the recommended method of manipulating the SERPA release). A failure mode that encourages your finger to fall on the trigger before you’re ready is simply unacceptable, especially when there is at least one very functional alternative available.
February 10th, 2012 at 11:26 am
@6
+1 on the Safariland ALS. I have two, and really like the system. Its close enough to a thumb break style that it feels natural drawing from the holster.
February 10th, 2012 at 11:53 am
I have a SERPA for my 92FS that I use when I carry it (only occasionally) and when I compete with it in IDPA/PPC. Its a hell of a lot better than the uncle mike’s nylon IWB generic “full size automatic” holster I was using originally, but I don’t think I would wear it with confidence if I was rolling around in the sand/dirt/snow/mud.
Then again, I keep seeing photos of our men and women in the sandbox carrying their sidearms in SERPAs, and they don’t seem to be having problems with them. That could be because they don’t frequently transition to their secondary weapon, but I’d be curious to find out what kind of testing the military did before they acquired/issued them.
February 10th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
An elegant design is going to leverage your natural motions and reactions. This design is not elegant. You can have a positive safety system that still follows natural movements, as long as they are positive movements that don’t resemble anything else.
The example is pulling the pin on a grenade. It’s not something you would do in any other way on a grenade, but it is a natural movement. To me, the Serpa is like designing a grenade pouch that required you to remove the grenade by pulling it straight up by the pin. Sure, if you always follow your training and always pull straight up, you don’t have any problems.
But if you angle that pin wrong, you now have a grenade that you don’t have control over with the spoon flying off. In the same way, if you, under stress with poor fine motor control, continue curving your finger, you can easily shoot yourself in the leg. Same problem.
February 10th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
On the other, folks point out that you should train with the holster, like anything else.
On the other, folks point out that Airbus pilots just need more simulator time to deal with stall situations.
On the other hand, folks point out that it’s find that your users have Administrator privilege, but you just need to update your antivirus definitions.
Training is fine, and can offset more difficult designs. But I keep explaining to the engineers that while training can help, people will still say that your design sucked.
I don’t know about the holster, and maybe the design is fine. But I’m skeptical that “yeah we’re different, but you’ll get used to it” scales very well.
February 10th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Sid,
“My entire MP platoon used them on our last deployment.”
By that logic, the Bianchi UM84 was the previous Best Holster In The World, the M9 is the Best Pistol In The World, the HMMWV is the Best Vehicle In The World, and MRE’s are the Best Food In The World.
Pass, thanks.
February 10th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
When you have to have additional training to use the product safely, that’s what we call a clue.
February 10th, 2012 at 1:59 pm
For the record BLACKHAWK! is the name of the company, a Blackhawk is one member of a Chicago hockey team, Black Hawk is a town in Colorado and a black hawk is a predatory bird.
That said I agree with most of what Richard puts out, but I don’t like the Serpa. Personally I want my trigger finger to do one thing (I don’t use a bad lever either), but even there I don’t care too much about the button.
If the Serpa is not your only holster and you forget to depress the button it fouls YOUR draw. During the last class I was in, the retention devices in both Serpa’s that were present were intentionally broken by their owners because of this.
February 10th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Every device has some particular weakness. The issue is the consequences of the weakness. My one issue with Glocks is that you have to pull the trigger to take it apart. If I thought there was a chance that I’d have to field strip it under stress, I doubt I’d actually own any Glocks.
Honestly, the thing that makes using a SERPA seem silly is that there are much better choices out there for a retention holster that don’t use your trigger finger to get them out. But the SERPA is more popular because it’s cheap, not because it’s better.
February 10th, 2012 at 3:10 pm
The holster gets gummed up with debris and fails. A quick look around will show evidence of it. But hey, if people want to buy it, have at it. I’m sure there’s market for parachutes that don’t deploy.
February 10th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
If a holster requires extensive training to use safely, then it is fail.
Period.
Learn proper gun retention instead of relying on a gadget.
February 10th, 2012 at 7:44 pm
On a side note, I work as a small arms repairer at state national guard maintenance facility. We have to inspect weapons from units that have been deployed (reset) and I have always been able to tell which soldier has used a Blackhawk Serpa for their M9. The combination of the kydex, sand, dirt and lack of cleaning puts some spectacular wear patterns into the frame, particularly around the trigger guard and slide. Some looked as if someone had taken a file to the surface. They may be good for basic weapon retention but they’re hell on the finish.
February 10th, 2012 at 9:33 pm
I have personally jammed the button on a Serpa TWICE! I thought the first time was a fluke. After the second one, A piece of wire heated in a cook fire converted the Serpa to a standard “let me dray it holster.” I have also been present for three NDs due to adrenalin and and button position.
In my opinion you are better off with a non retention holster and a freakin loop of bungie ( I DON’T RECOMMEND THAT EITHER!!!)
February 10th, 2012 at 10:06 pm
I have Galco leather for all of my pistols. Have yet to have a problem. I’ve no need for a Serpa and no plans to get one.
February 11th, 2012 at 1:14 am
The rule of thumb that one of my profs in college had was that you know you’re not done with development, as long as mistakes occur.
The question should be: Do more mistakes occur with this thingamajig than with it’s alternative?
Think of it this way: Which is more user friendly – a tightrope across a chasm, or a tunnel bored through solid rock? One can be negotiated successfully with proper training and concentration. The other is almost impossible to screw up.
I don’t have one of these holsters, and I saw the video of the guy who put one through his leg. I won’t be buying one any time soon.
February 11th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
“But the SERPA is more popular because it’s cheap, not because it’s better.”
I’ll admit that’s why I bought mine.
February 11th, 2012 at 6:24 pm
I can understand the hate for the 1911 Serpa, where your finger gets aligned with the middle of the trigger. What I can’t understand is the hate for some of the others (I have Beretta 92 and M&P45 Serpas) where no matter how hard you press or how far you curl your finger, your trigger finger is aligned alongside the gun, properly indexed…you know, like how you draw with every other holster.
The Serpa has a few other things going for it as well: It relies on the shear strength of the material, as opposed to the friction between the kydex and the gun. If your gun is covered with water, oil, blood, etc, you will likely get better retention with a Serpa. I also liked mine because I could lock the slide back on my M9, and still holster it. Handy when you’re turning a bunch of junk back in to the armory and SOP is for the slide to be open. Considering that the Marine Corps still lets Marines use them, and we’re the biggest bunch of safety nazis on the planet, I’d say that for at least that particular model, it’s fine. At least, I haven’t seen any warnings about NDs caused by Serpas cross my desk.