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Fuel for the caliber flame wars

And old one but worth noting:

Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis’ .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTsóconsidered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers availableóPalmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream.

Four minutes is a long time when you’re fighting.

15 Responses to “Fuel for the caliber flame wars”

  1. bwm Says:

    Jesus – this guy must be a highlander

  2. Tomcatshanger Says:

    They don’t call it a failure drill for nothing.

    Makes ya wanna carry 40mm HE doesn’t it?

  3. Tam Says:

    Two very important lessons:

    Some folks take an awful lot of killin’.

    Some days you get the bear, and some days the bear gets you.

  4. Bob Dole Says:


    .575 minie ball, is the way to go! A step backwards is a step forwards!


  5. Sennin Says:

    “… Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulisí .40-caliber Glock, 17 …”???

    I’m pretty sure the G17 is 9mm and not 40S&W.

  6. Sennin Says:

    Sorry. It was a G22. Misread the excerpt. My bad.

  7. mariner Says:

    One reason this is quoted is that it’s so atypical.

    It CAN happen, but it usually doesn’t.

  8. mariner Says:

    I pushed the button before noting that if the officer had been using a 1911 .45, he would have needed only one shot. ūüėČ

  9. Chas Says:

    One of the comments there:
    “Would a 45 have been more effective?”

    That’s a question that need never come up. So why does it? Go with the .45 to begin with and then you can spend the aftermath doing other things besides questioning your choice of chamberings. The .45 frees up time for you like that.
    Whereís my .55 ACP? The US Congress took it away from me and they wonít give it back because itís a house of freedom-stealing thieves!

  10. Weer'd Beard Says:

    Chas, to hold you over until we kick the NFA in the teeth there’s the .50 GI!

    They make .50 cal 1911s, as well as uppers for the .45 and 10mm Glocks!

  11. RC Says:

    Long ago I was taught the first two go center mass, check target for movement. If the target is still threatening the next two go in the groin area, hoping for arterial damage and or shattering joints or pelvis sufficiently the target can no longer sustain its own weight. This can also potentialy defeat body armor. After that the next two at the head as severing the spinal cord will be an instant stop or solid hit to the brain should drop the target reasonably quickly. Besides, if the first two don’t stop the target it’s gotten close enough a head shot is almost practical.

  12. Hypnagogue Says:

    If you read the details, the event isn’t quite that dramatic. It wasn’t 22 hits then 4 minutes, it was 22 hits over 4 minutes. We know that 15 of the hits were in the last seconds of the gunfight, after the attacker was likely incapacitated, and of the earlier hits at least two were through glass. The real mystery is the remaining 5 “quality” CoM hits the officer story states were aimed for a bobbing head. Um… the facts are being stretched past their elastic limit.

    It makes a great argument for magazine capacity, though.

  13. John H. Says:

    Actually, according to the excerpt Uncle quoted, it WAS 22 hits then 4 minutes.

  14. LKP Says:

    The caliber argument is really irrelevant in this case. Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized!
    In reality, the only way to immediately or almost immediately disable someone is to shoot them in the hypothalamus, or lower rear part of the brain. This controls the central nervous system and damaging it will have immediate results. That said, the only way to be sure to hit it is shoot through the eyes or mouth.

  15. Paul Says:

    Failure to neutralize drills are well known. If the first two do not stop the threat, then either a CNS shot or pelvis shot is indicated. To keep shooting where you know it does not work is to Winchester your gun (as was done.)

    Yes, itís better to have than not need (magazine capacity), and itís better to shoot strait than to rely on magazine capacity, but itís best to notice the indicators and take preventive action before the need to use deadly force.

    Forewarned is forearmed.

Remember, I do this to entertain me, not you.

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