Once more, with feeling
Let’s have the Glock v. 1911 debate again
Kim asks: if the Glock really is so good, then why does no other army want them?
Actually, a few armies have them. There are a number of reasons why some don’t. In the 1980s when armies started switching to Wonder Nines, the Glock wasn’t particularly popular. And most countries like to use firearms made in their own country. Rumor is also that Glock performed well in some .gov tests. But Glock refused to turn over some patented info to the government and didn’t get a contract. Probably for the best since the US Army damn near ruined the AR-15.
Also, military folks tend to rely more on their rifles than handguns. Handgun is not viewed as the primary firearm. Contrast that to police who tend to use their sidearm as their primary weapons and the Glock is the most commonly used sidearm out there. Part of the reason for that is that a Glock, essentially, functions identically to a revolver. No manual safeties or decockers.
ETA: Also, the Glock did not meet the specs for the Joint Combat Pistol. As such, Glock developed the Glock 21SF.
Flame bait: I know of no police force that issues the 1911. If they’re so good, why does no police force (whose sidearms are their primary weapon) carry 1911s?
Note: I like and own both Glocks and a 1911. It really is preference and each works well. There are trade offs with each. And I’ll summarize my SWOT analysis of each:
Glock pros: Less expensive; higher capacity; highly reliable; accessories galore; accessories are less expensive; cleaning is generally optional (seriously, I think I clean mine once per year); I don’t really mind if I scratch and it’s not uncommon for me to just throw it in the truck; simplest semi-auto to operate; come in lots of caliber and sizes.
Glock cons: ergonomics are not the greatest; trigger pull frankly is bad (it’s not H&K bad but it’s not real pleasant); they’re not friendly to unjacketed ammo; comes with a legion of fan boys; lighter frame means more felt recoil.
1911 pros: ergonomics are fantastic; trigger pull is great; lots of accessories; several caliber options; heavier weight makes shooting 45ACP out of it much more pleasant; no limp wrist ejection issues like a glock has; generally easier to work on yourself than a Glock.
1911 cons: Spendy; lower capacity; can be finicky and require adjustments; they’re so pretty you don’t want to scratch them; more complex to operate; comes in limited sizes.
That said, if you want a rugged gun to shoot and not spend a lot of time maintaining it and for carry, the Glock works.
If you’re an enthusiast who wants a gun to tinker with, customize, and play around with and can also be carried, the 1911 works.
Update: see comments. There are some police forces that use 1911s. And Missouri uses the Para LDA, as does Kansas and a PD in MA.
Here’s a long list of what some departments carry. Interesting.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Spokane Washington issues the 1911, LAPD SWAT and other special units carry the 1911, Missouri Highway Patrol carries the Para LDA, many smaller agencies allow officers to carry 1911s. The single biggest reason Law Enforcement agencies issue Glocks is the cost. In any bi process, they bid as cheaply as they have to to get the bid because they know if the cops carry Glock, civilians will want to buy them.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:44 am
KdT was wrong. More militaries use the Glock than have ever used the M1911. He has a bad habit of stating as Firearms Fact things that, well… aren’t.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:49 am
“they’re so pretty you don’t want to scratch them”
Not the original GI 1911A1. They look better with some dirt and scratches, IMHO.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:51 am
I took a cruise out of Galveston Texas, I thought I saw a few 1911s in holsters…but I think there were a few non 1911s too, so it might have been a department that issues rebates and allows personal choice.
I’ll tell you, I’m a 1911 fanboy, but I’d be a damned fool for knocking Glocks, they do what they do, and they do it very well.
Also you failed to mention profile. 1911s are nice and thin, making them easy to hide!
October 16th, 2008 at 10:43 am
My dad was a cop in the 70’s and 80’s. Before that (long before) he was an “AP” in the Air Force. While “Air Police” was his title, he was actually in a mortar platoon in the Philippines. He carried an M1 Carbine and sometimes, a 1911.
I asked him after he joined the Memphis PD why they went with .38 revolvers over the 1911. He told me the police didn’t want a military weapon, it sent the wrong message.
How times have changed.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:48 am
there always has been, probably always will be, a debate of form, function, and the elusive “it” factor vs. pure efficiency, and it’s not limited to firearms…
but re glock’s ubiquity among l.e. agencies, the first commenter has it right; it’s about cost…early on in the l.e. wars there wasn’t any.
in a flash of marketing brilliance about 1990, glock bypassed traditional distribution and sent reps to demo the new virtually indestructible “plastics” which won over a hell of a lot of l.e. rangemasters.
then with remarkable prescience of the market value being created by the banning of “new” 10+ magazines for public consumption, they offered thousands of l.e. agencies blanket even-trade swaps of brand new glocks with $10 leo mags for every other brand then in use, pumping the trade-ins through wholesalers and creating a seller’s market of $100 used preban magazines.
worked pretty well…i would guess that 90% of l.e. issue sidearms today are glock…and the resultant popularity and sales boom to the general public is now legend…like i said, f’n brilliant.
jtc
October 16th, 2008 at 11:04 am
The Texas Rangers, almost to a man, carry a 5″ 1911 as a primary and a commander 1911 as a backup…
October 16th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Didn’t he quit blogging and if not isn’t this another reason for him to do so? Ignorance is curable, stupidity is forever.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
1911’s seem to generally hammer the primer much hard than euro-pistols. That’s important to most military’s so marginal ammo can be used.
A full size 1911 is a much better hammer than any plastic wondergun. If combat comes down to hand to hand and your out of ammo, an all metal 1911 is a better clubbing weapon.
Of course, the US Army didn’t start running out of M1911A1’s from War Two until the mid 1980’s.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
You forgot the 4 biggest 1911 cons:
1) Much more expensive than a Glock
2) Short barrel models are not reliable
3) Many magazines are not reliable
4) Fetishized by blowhards
October 16th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
It was always my understand, from being in the military in the past and working with them now, that the military didn’t want firearms that don’t have manual safeties. Lord knows, judging by the “gun safety” habits of most of the sailors I see around here at work, manual safeties and not being allowed to chamber a round is a good move.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I collect and shoot 1911s, but I carry Glocks and Snubbie 38s, primarily because I don’t want to have a $1,000 + 1911 stolen.
I don’t want a Glock or a snubnose 38 stolen, but I would rather have $350 – $500 at risk than at least double the amount.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Nice post.
In the interests of fairness and balance, it seems to me that if you list as a Glock con, “comes with a legion of fan boys” you should include as a 1911 con, “COMES WITH A LEGION OF FANBOYS”.
Just sayin’.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
I changed out my connector and now my Glock 17 trigger is smooth and even.
DoubleTapper
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DoubleTapper, blogging on
Guns Politics Defense from Israel
October 16th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Good post.
James
October 17th, 2008 at 1:58 am
There’s a countdown to retirement on the front page. Evidently ignorance ISN’T curable.
I’m done defending Kim, but the whole “I can’t be right without being bitchy” thing is why I stopped reading your blog, Tam. Oh, I forgot – it’s not bitchy, it’s *snark*.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:16 am
It’s a free country. I don’t expect everybody to like my style, and my feelings aren’t hurt when someone doesn’t.
Have a nice day! 🙂