Gun Safe
Been a while since I rapped at ya, but I’m in need of some shopping advice.
My friends and I store a number of guns in a house in upstate New York. They’re locked away, but we want to put them in a safe because the house is often empty for periods of time. Also, we often host weekend events that involve shooting. Participants are required to discuss gun storage with us, and if they can’t establish that they can secure their gun from drunken idiots all weekend (i.e. leaving it in a tent isn’t good enough), we want to be able to assure them we’ll lock it up tight.
We’re looking at the 18 or 22-gun capacity Centurion from Liberty Safes, largely because it was recommended by a gentleman at the sporting goods shop. Looking around, it’s clear this safe isn’t the fanciest box on the market. We deem it “good enough” to make any potential thief move along. The guns are literally the only things of value in the house, so we figure if the guns are safe, there’s no reason for a thief to stick around.
Anybody have any direct experience with such safes, made by Liberty or otherwise? Personal recommendations appreciated.
June 3rd, 2008 at 6:21 pm
I have a Liberty Centurion at home w/ an 18 capacity. Decent quality. Fits less if your longarms are pistol grips in comparison to straight stocks. Would take a while for crooks w/ tools to get into it while carrying it off would require an appliance dolly and numerous people. Some photos:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a186/kecibukia/Shooting/DSCF0593.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a186/kecibukia/Shooting/DSCF0594.jpg
June 3rd, 2008 at 6:39 pm
They’re expensive but take a look at Zanotti Armor. Their safes come apart for transport. I just got one and I love it.
June 3rd, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Two things come to mind – if you want fire protection, that will increase the weight and reduce the interior volume, but might be worth it for peace-of-mind at an unattended rural house.
Second, make sure you can secure it SERIOUSLY – lag-bolting to a beam will be broken in a flash by determined thieves, either by busting the lags or by ripping out the wood. It should be bolted (using Redheads or similar in concrete – no lead lag anchors) with grade 8 bolts to either concrete, stone or metal plate in sufficient quantity to keep it from being hauled off. If you use a big plate under the floor, make sure you have the nuts on the bolts welded or peened to keep them from being removed easily. if you can fasten it along both the bottom and side/back, that will help, as they won’t be able to wrap a chain around it and jerk it out the front door.
The problem with lesser attachments is that the safe itself offers a LOT of leverage to help in breaking the bolts or material – and burglars do seem to know how to accomplish this (my wife’s office had the safe stolen that way)
Good Luck!
June 3rd, 2008 at 8:27 pm
When I was shopping for a safe I was amazed at how much variety they came in. Things to consider are fireproofing (temp and time), weight, whether or not it can be broken down (for moves), gauge thickness of the metal, and whether or not you are going to bolt it down.
Personally, I’m a renter and have people below me so I can’t get a huge 800 lb safe. I settled on a relatively inexpensive Sentry 14-gun safe from Wal-mart. It cost $300 has 1/4″ steel and no fireproofing. But then I am home every night and really don’t have the need or budget for all the frills.
Perhaps one day when I settle down and buy a big house with a man-cave in the basement I’ll buy the 800lb safe with 3 independent locks and 10 hours of fireproofing.
June 3rd, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I’ve got a liberty, and thus far, I’ve been happy with it. That said, I’ve not had to deal with a fire or theft (thank God.)
Any competent and trustworthy safe dealer will tell you – in addition to the good advice that’s already been posted – no safe is theft-proof. That means they can all be penetrated and/or stolen, given enough time, force and dedication. Don’t take shortcuts on securing it to your house… Those attachments are just as important as the locks on the safe door.
June 3rd, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Search on http://www.thehighroad.org for “rsc” and you’ll learn a lot. Most/all of those fancy looking “safes” in sporting goods shops aren’t. They’re “residential security cabinets” that can be broken into in 15-25 minutes by a guy with an axe and a crowbar. That goes for the big Liberty safes as well. While they do have some deterrent qualities, they aren’t safes.
Real safes that will hold that many firearms run $5000 and up. Here’s an example thread:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362904&highlight=rsc+safe
One of the guys there who sells real safes has a website here:
http://www.zykansafe.com/
June 3rd, 2008 at 10:03 pm
One of the Houston shooters had a guy break in….LEAVE and come back with diamond blade saw to cut into his safe.
House was alarmed but alarm malfunctioned. They caught the guy, he made a deal and they got a few things back, wife’s jewelry that wasn’t in the safe.
Safe is a good thing but there is lots of information about how to defeat them. Mostly they discourage the amatures and buy a little time.
June 3rd, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Here’s a video of a typical “Liberty” style safe getting broken into with a prybar and crow bar in under 2 minutes
http://www.washingtonceasefire.net/content/view/105/45/
The first video is interesting. The second one reminds you that you get what you pay for.
June 3rd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Buy the Liberty safe and then hide the guns under loose floorboards. The thieves will spend all their time and effort on the safe. When they crack it and find it empty they will assume nothing of value is in the home and leave.
June 4th, 2008 at 2:16 am
Most “gun safes”, including expensive Cannon and Liberty models, are nothing more than relatively thin (10 or 12 gauge sheet steel) wrapped around drywall sheets.
All the ones I’ve seen are classified as “Residential Security Containers”, and meet the same basic security requirements as little flimsy lockboxes to carry cash.
Very few can pass the stringent UL tool-resistance tests, and so they opt for the lesser RSC certification. Very few can pass the stringent UL fire-resistance tests, and so opt for cheaper, less-strenuous third-party fire-resistance tests.
These RSCs put tons of beefy-looking bolts (steel bolts are cheap) to make it look really secure, but one can easily hack through the door or body with an axe, or simply pry the door open with a crowbar in a couple minutes.
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of kids, fools, and basic smash-and-grab thieves, such an RSC would probably be suitable. There’s effectively no difference between the security of a Cannon/Liberty RSC and an inexpensive Stack-On RSC with comparable gauge steel and a decent lock. Why pay $1,400 for a Cannon when one can buy a Stack-On for $800? (I bought the Cannon C-23, as it’s made in the USA and I value US industry, and am willing to pay a bit more for that. The Stack-On is Chinese-made, less expensive, but equal in security. That is, it provides minimal security and fire protection.)
Actual “safes” (UL-rated to TL-15 or TL-30 levels) are expensive and heavy. The Amsec RF6528 weighs ~3,500 pounds and costs about $4,000. That’s just a basic example. Considerably more beefy and expensive safes exist, and should be seriously considered if one is securing highly valuable items (like a machine gun).
There are two safe experts I know on TheHighRoad.org who really know their stuff. Review the ample threads available at the forum to learn all you can (pretty much every conceivable situation and question has been discussed), and then ask questions as needed.
June 4th, 2008 at 2:44 am
Oh, also, remember that any sort of safe is simply “buying time”, delaying the criminals from acquiring your guns and other valuables.
Have your safe, the room it’s located in, and your home hooked up to a monitored alarm system. If it takes X minutes to open your safe, and the police respond in <X minutes, your safe has done it’s job (even if it was destroyed in the process). Make sure your alarm system has a backup to the normal telephone line, in case the phone is cut. Many modern alarms can send information over cellular links and have battery backups, and so can function even if the criminal cuts phone and power.
Also, it can be useful to buy a relatively inexpensive wi-fi enabled video camera. I’m a fan of Axis cameras. Hook the camera up to an uninterruptible power supply (so it’ll work if power is interrupted) and connect it to a wireless network (like what you use for your computers). You might want to see if a friendly neighbor will let your camera piggyback off their network, so if your internet connection is interrupted, it can still do its job. Configure the camera to be motion-sensitive and take pictures and videos upon detecting motion. Also configure it to send the photos and video off-site immediately (many cameras can upload to a remote FTP server or send emails with pictures and videos as attachments) so even if the camera is destroyed, you’ll still have evidence.
This can help you identify criminals after they leave the scene. Just be sure you have pants on when you’re accessing the gun safe, lest you end up with an email inbox filled with pictures of your bare bum. š
June 4th, 2008 at 8:11 am
The above poster has it exactly right – a safe only buys time for the alarm system to do its work. A simple, locking metal storage cabinet, combined with a basic alarm, would probably cost less then even a low-end safe and would provide much better protection.
My advice? Buy more storage than you think you need. These things tend to fill up…
June 4th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Hey, BH is still around.
June 4th, 2008 at 11:05 am
The plan is to bolt the box to a concrete floor and two walls. We’re aware the box will just extend the time it takes to steal our guns, but that’s good enough to lower the chances of them being stolen. I have to say, though, it is distressing how ineffective these boxes are. A “real” safe will have to wait for a real budget.
Thanks, all, for the tips.
Uncle, I read and enjoy daily, but new life obligations leave little time for posting shenanigans.
June 4th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
there is a gun on THR that works for a company that installs used bank vault doors into houses… they can run anywhere from $3000 to $15000…. might be something to check out if you have the room and financing… it would damn sure be more secure than a simple safe
June 4th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
The centurion at best is something to keep your kids out of or an extremely high meth addict. I sell safes for a living, and sell the centurions as well. Its only 12ga body construction, with bolt coverage on one side of the door. Do yourself a favor and find a safe expert and buy the safe from a safe dealer. You will better understand what your getting, and not have a false sense of security. Just watch this, its a Liberty Centurion 31. It was made to show that ALL entry level gun safes offer a false sense of security.
June 4th, 2008 at 5:17 pm