Two approaches
Ok, ok, I struggled with this one. Here’s the story:
Former Attorney General Janet Reno and seven other former Justice Department officials filed court papers Nov. 20 that the Bush administration is setting a dangerous precedent by trying a suspected terrorist outside the court system. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales defended the nation’s handling of the detainees. “What is extraordinary, in other words, is how much, not how little, our law protects enemy combatants,” he said.
I couldn’t decide which bit of smarmy commentary to use, so I’ll use both. Which comment should Uncle have made:
1 - Janet Reno criticizing the heavy-handed tactics of the Justice Department is like Michael Richards criticizing me for racial insensitivity.
or:
2 - When someone who set people on fire says you’re setting a dangerous precedent, it may be time for some serious introspection.
Decisions, decisions?
Update: Funny. Seems that since Insty tossed a link, some folks think I’m an idiot for using a bit of duality here. Take for instance, this guy:
The link “SayUncle” references is from the National Rifle Association. These are the same yahoos that were screaming that Clinton was going to take all their guns away while decrying the “jackbooted thugs” who sent Elian back to his biological father. They’re the same flavor of nut that blame the US government for Waco and not the heavily-armed apocalyptic religious cultist David Koresh. Now they yawn at the Bush administration’s illegal wiretapping, torture of US citizens and gutting of habeas corpus, while real conservatives blast them.
The NRA copied text from an AP report, so the source isn’t the evil NRA. One click, and you’d have figured that out there, sparky. The NRA referred to the ATF as Jackbooted thugs during Bush 1’s administration after the Ruby Ridge incident (recall Bush 1 didn’t get their endorsement in 92). Those nuts in Congress also concluded that the government shared the blame for Waco because, well, no matter how nutty someone is (and Koresh was nucking futs), it’s not justification for tossing in some incindiaries and driving a tank through the door. Good post, other than getting substantially all the facts wrong.
Them stoopid gun nutz, they criticize because they’re stoopid and they’re gun nutz. Anyhoo, for the slow of mind: This post is a criticism of the heavy-handed tactics of both the Clinton Justice Department and the Bush Justice Department. In case you haven’t noticed, they both suck.
And it does illustrate one of the problems in dealing with the Waco incident. You cannot criticize the heavy-handed actions of the government without being viewed as one who is defending David Koresh. So, to be clear, Koresh was nuts. Koresh had illegal weapons. Koresh is to blame for the deaths of those people. But none of that excuses the tactics used on the compound. Period. I don’t care how crazy you are, it’s doesn’t justify setting the building you’re in on fire.
Update 2: I called this guy an idiot. Having read his response, I don’t think he’s an idiot. He still gets most of his facts wrong but he’s not an idiot. Disingenuous, sure, but not an idiot. Apologies to the Blue Texan.
Update 3: I rescind my apology. Having read his update in which we learn he cannot write in a manner in which one can determine who he is calling a yahoo; that he says I called Reno a blood-thirsty murderer who did it intentionally; and makes the reference to Clinton-hating (see rule #3); and other misstatements, the term idiot stands.
November 21st, 2006 at 11:28 am
I’ve quit blowing gaskets over this. I had to, or I’d be worm food by now.
Since when does the Geneva/Hague conventions or the US Constitution cover irregular combatants, otherwise known as terrorists? Of course, they are usually called freedom fighters, or somesuch. People who put this stuff out aren’t right. Talk about being on the other side.
Sedition charges all around! Grrr.
November 21st, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Prozac, alcohol, or just ignore it? Reno has already shown her judgement at Waco. No lawyers could save those people.
The civilization is at the tipping point.
November 21st, 2006 at 12:10 pm
2, with an edit :
When someone who sets people on fire and sends jack-booted gunners after a six-year-old says you’re setting a dangerous precedent, it’s time for some serious introspection.
And then a call to the Attorney General.
November 21st, 2006 at 1:36 pm
As for Waco, Koresh should have been subjected to a Casino Royale - style torture, but with a medieval flail instead of whatever heavy object was used.
Then Reno and Co.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Both comments work for me, since I thought roughly the same things when I read the quote.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Rustmeister, nothing I have read about Koresh would come close to justifying torture (it is not even certain that he should have been jailed). Just what is that you have read or imagined about Koresh that would justify such treatment?
November 21st, 2006 at 4:41 pm
I wasn’t condoning torture, just prolonged, agonizing death.
He was as responsible, if not moreso, for the deaths of those children. That’s enough for me.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:42 pm
Because he should have expected the fedgov to send in pyrotechnics?
That’s a bit harsh.
November 21st, 2006 at 6:05 pm
I agree with gattsuru about Reno.
Also, we will never know which, if any, of the FBI and ATF’s allegations about Koresh are true, because the FBI destroyed most of the evidence and claims it cannot find other important items (e.g. the front door, which would presumably show whether the bullet holes were from incoming fire, outgoing fire or both).
Not that it really would have mattered, though, because the integrity of the FBI’s crime lab was slim to none under Reno’s reign.
Why is it that I reflexively think of tanks and subguns deployed in the civilian arena when someone mentions Janet Reno?
November 21st, 2006 at 10:44 pm
Thank Jack-boot Janet for pointing out this government abuse, and deal with it.
Then hang her.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:04 am
Ah Uncle, I have no way to decide which to use. They are both appropriate. You are truly faced with a difficult decision, so my suggestion is to combine them, solving the problem.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:10 am
Sorry guys, Islam is a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms authorized religion.
Mostly for the firearms.
But if we’ve learned nothing since Waco, it’s that BATF-approved religions are treated differently than non-BATF ones.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:14 am
What you all keep forgetting is that Reno was Clinton’s AG, so everything she did is perfectly OK in the minds of the Democrats, the MSM and the LLL’s.
To the Democrats, the MSM and the LLL’s their politics and the lust for power trump the very “virtues” they claim to hold so dear.
They claim they are all for “gay rights” yet turn a blind eye to what their Islamofascist heroes do to gays such as hang them or throw them off of buildings. They screech about “sexual McCarthyism” while being experts in the practice of it.
They claim they are all for “womens rights” yet turn a blind eye to the slavery of women under their Islamofascist heroes, the honor killings,the genital mutilation, the infanticide of female babies (I guess that falls under “right to choose”-as in the right to choose to kill female children which have no value under Islam except to breed and be slaves).
They *GASP* in feigned horror when some idiot drops the “N-word” yet delight in calling any and all Blacks who wander off the “Democratic Plantation” Uncle Tom, Aunt Jemimma, and “house niggers” (THEIR WORDS-NOT MINE!). They also do not seem to have a problem with their own members using racial/ethnic epithets such as Jessie “Hymietown” Jackson or Al “Cracker” Sharpton.
They turn a blind eye to anything and everything that they can not use to bash America, the Republicans or President Bush.
The Democrats, the MSM and the LLL’s are Hypocrites, Misogynists and Racist. Above all they are seditionists and traitors.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:29 am
dangerous precedent by trying a suspected terrorist outside the court system.
The real question is what court system is Janet Reno talking about? A US military tribunal is a court system, but apparently she (and others) don’t accept that fact. Of course, the US federal courts are a system as well as the state and local courts. I’m sure most people will assume that is what she means. However, Janet Reno has no problem with the International Criminal Court, but they are only in prosecuting Donald Rumsfeld rather than terrorists. Also the US doesn’t recognize the ICC.
Alas, Janet Reno is most famous (as the tragedies in Waco and Little Havana suggest) in using the court of public opinion and the media, which is another court system that is not recognized formally by the US.
So which is a more dangerous precendent: A US Administration using a military tribunal, that has been recognized as a legitimate US court system for over 200 years, to try a combatant (as is proscribed by international treaties that the US is a party to) or a former Attorney General using the court of public opinion to exonerate her decision to execute US citizens and kidnap children at gunpoint.
Rustmeister (or someone else), is it even legal, under the Geneva Conventions, to try a irregular combatant under civilian criminal legal systems? For instance, I know you can’t try a POW for murder, even if before capture the identified combatant destroyed a small town.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:30 am
LLL? La Lech League or Lutheran Laymen’s League?
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:41 am
Those damn Le Lechers… they were always trying to get my wife to use those things for something other than my pleasure!!!
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:44 am
“When someone who set people on fire says you’re setting a dangerous precedent, it may be time for some serious introspection.”
It’s OK to set Christianists on fire. It’s wrong to drape so-called Islamist “terrorists” in Jewish flags. This isn’t that difficult guys. American gun-owners are evil. Islamists who alledgedly fly airplanes into buildings are justifed by Vietnam, Iraq, capitalism, pollution, etc.
2008….Waco part 2. Fully backed by the ACLU. The red-stater terrorist threat will be brought to heel in retribution for their terrible treatment of gays and muslims.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:53 am
Reno is right in this case. Everyone has bad calls in their past. If we dismiss a person’s opinion because of prior bad acts, guess what, we listen to no one, including you.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:04 pm
As I recall, most of the provisions of the Patriout Act were actually proposed by Reno’s Justice Departmentin the 90’s.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Hmmm … I think a “bad call” resulting in a high-two-digit number of deaths — of American citizens, effectively in the custody of law enforcement — may be reason to question someone’s judgment. But, hey, they can give her the Janet Reno Torchbearer Award for trying to stop the eeeevil Bush Admin.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:13 pm
One of the really appalling things about Waco was the post-Waco news coverage. The Washington Post ran a puff-piece about Reno called “Janet Reno, Standing Tall.” Which led to a quip by former Attorney General Bill Barr. Barr wondered to a reporter whether, if the Talladega prison had burned down when he sent in the SWAT team, the Post would have run an article about how he was standing tall.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:24 pm
I think you have to include “changing the rules of engagement” that led to the FBI shooting Randy Weaver’s wife while she was holding their baby. And that her decisions in Ruby Ridge and Waco led to Oklahoma City.
After contemplating that, I’d say #1. This woman should not be quoted on matters of national policy.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:30 pm
I vote for smarmy comment number 2.
lk - some past acts are worse than other. Reno’s are worse.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:42 pm
>But none of that excuses the tactics used on the compound. Period. I don’t care how crazy you are, it’s doesn’t justify setting the building you’re in on fire.
Uh huh.
Let’s set aside the fact that actually if someone is crazy enough that setting the building on fire could very well be justified; can we apply that standard to Iraq? Of course America set the whole country, figuratively, on fire and you can’t blame Clinton…
Well sensible people can’t.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:53 pm
Salvage,
Being crazy never justifies setting someone on fire. Being crazy and trying to kill someone might justify it but just being crazy doesn’t cut it.
Iraq is a straw-man. And no one blamed Clinton (also a straw man). The criticism was of the JD.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Actually it is the terrorist “insurgents” who are blowing up Iraqis. Some are imports, others were the same people who raped, oppressed and enslaved Iraqis prior to the US liberation of Iraq from the Baathists. But remember, we live in an age of moral relativism. If I “invade” your yard to stop you from beating your wife to death, you have every “right” to try to kill me and also kill your children (especially if you happen to be “brown person” - never mind your victims are also brown poeple). Welcome to the gnostic age, where evil is tolerated and celebrated.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:13 pm
One of the very few reasons I find to be thankful Bush was elected president is the nightmare vision of a Gore presidency retaining Janet (”The Torch of Statism”) Reno as Attorney General. Can you imagine, post 9/11, Jackboots Janet with war powers behind her? This entire country would go up in flames. Literally.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:28 pm
And, if I remember correctly, that NRA letter quoted the ‘jack-booted thugs’ bit from a speech made on the floor of the House by a Democrat Rep(from Wisconsin, I think). He said it in the House, and it fell in a hole. The NRA quotes him in a letter, and the friggin’ ceiling falls in.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Maybe somebody above has already mentioned this, but it couldn’t wait, I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I will. This needs said now.
Koresh did not have illegal weapons. Period. That has been proven time and again. In fact, the ATF was invited in to inspect them after the AWB was passed to make certain. The offer of surrender of any weapons that had been “illegalized” by the ban was made. The ATF declined the invitation and then put on their little “intimidate America” show. Just to let the rest of us know what could happen to our children if we didn’t curry favor.
The Davidians were certainly eccentric, but no one has ever shown them to have harmed anybody. In a free society you can be as eccentric as you want if you don’t harm others. The incident at Waco was simply federally committed murder, Ruby Ridge on a larger scale. There is no justification for it.
The government opened fire when Koresh opened the door. They went there to kill. There can be no argument about that. Everything done by the authorities made killing inevitable.
I suggest you read more on it. Study the sheriff’s statements, the Texas Ranger’s statements if they haven’t been sanitized and if you can get access to original film watch it closely.
I am not a conspiracy nut, but I do know one when I see one. All evidence points, even post event, points to the mission being considered a success in the manner the administration approved. How else does one explain the promotion of the FBI agent in charge to second highest post in the FBI when he was the same one in charge at Ruby Ridge, unless he was being rewarded for doing what was expected of him? Nobody rewards fuckups like that.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:33 pm
So the ATF agents who died because Koresh’s nut jobs were firing on them don’t make them both crazy and trying (and managed) to kill people? Just verifying…
Todd McKeehan, Robert Williams, Conway LeBleu, and Steve Willis aren’t around to comment.
bob,
I believe the reason that people from the area wished to slow-roast him over an open fire came from allegations from multiple accounts both before and after the raid that Koresh demanded ‘access’ to every woman, and several of his child brides had been ‘broken in’ prior to their teens.
That being said…
The Branch Dividian compound raid is a prime example of how to fu
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:42 pm
Er.. Maybe it didn’t like multiple bits of random punctuation instead of full curse words?
The missing bits claimed that they *ahem* messed up the raid. Big time. Texans are allowed to resist government officials acting like Jackbooted Thugs. And months of being closely watched, cutting off electricity, using sleep deprivation techniques before storming a compound does not make for the most rational response on the other side of the door. Even when their children’s lives were at stake.
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:20 pm
I would say that I am not impressed with the advice of the person who, under her watch, the FBI and CIA developed a wall of separation that greatly contributed to the likelihood that 9-11 occured.
She may have been too tough on “Christian” standoffers, and little cuban boys, but when it came to Jihadist terrorists, she was a f—ing pantywaist. I could care less what she or anyone else from the Clinton era thinks. They are the idiots who dropped the ball. They are the ones who thought if we were nice, we wouldn’t be hit. I don’t care what they think.
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:23 pm
So, vis a vis Koresh: Is being a wacko a capital offence?
Gore spouts nonsense about global warming, Michael Moore is an habitual liar, George Galloway has referred to Palestine as being the ‘jewel of the Middle East’
Hmmm…ya convinced me. Death sentences all ’round!
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:26 pm
in addition, the ATF kept changing their story on why they had the right to harangue Koresh
Started out, ‘they have guns’. All purchased legally
Then it was ‘they have dynamite’. Again, purchased legally (building a pool)
Then it became ‘they are abusing children’
Okay, which letter in ATF stands for ‘preventing child abuse’
If that was the case, and we have only hearsay evidence, the FBI should have been called in as that IS their jusridiction
The ATF acted like idiots and made a tense situation impossible and, in the end, fatal
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:35 pm
[...] Related thoughts from SaysUncle [link] [...]
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Janet Reno’s right-hand man Tommy Flanagan (pronounced “Flah-nay’-gan”), liaison between the Department of Justice, the ATF, FBI and other law-enforcement agencies at Waco, acting as Ms. Reno’s spokesperson at Waco: “Well, they had guns. . . [ aside, in a whisper:] . . . what, they were legal? [ back to reporters] . . . Well, er . . . they were child molesters! Yeah, that’s the ticket! Child molesters!”
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Iraq is a straw-man?
I’m trying to understand what you could possibly mean… my point is you seem to have a rather Quaker-like attitude towards the Waco whackos but I suspect* a more war-like attitude when it comes to Iraq. Broken eggs for omlettes and all that.
Perhaps you don’t actually understand what the term ’straw man’ means do you? You just sort of drop it as a way of avoiding points thinking it a silver bullet to kill an argument you don’t like don’t you?
Well you might understand it because it makes a bit more sense in the context of Clinton except one can easily find many wingnuts blaming Clinton for all kinds of stuff, including Iraq. So it isn’t a strawman at all. So there you’ve use it correctly but are still wrong.
Nice try tho.
>Okay, which letter in ATF stands for ‘preventing child abuse’
That’s what I love about Instapundit; he digs out these wingnut gems for us to marvel over.
*Just a guess, please let me know if I’m wrong.
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Being around a wacko is unsettling; being around a wacko who shoots of an AK-47 is a different thing entirely.
Purchased legally, yes I think so. I thought there was something to do with the outlawing of automatic weapons in civilian hands that meant they had some that were no longer legal to operate, and / or weren’t grandfathered into the regulations.
I also believe that their contruction methods left Quite A Bit to be desired, and I don’t remember any pictures of a pool either finished or under construction (Did I miss something? It’s entirely possible that I did). Just like you can obtain rat poison, but if you don’t have a rat infestation and there are rumors you’re going to try to poison someone, you may very well be investigated.
I thought the FBI only got involved if you had transported kids across state lines, otherwise it was a local enforcement issue? Not that the ATF should have had anything to do with it, mind you…
I’m so not arguing with your last sentence. And you haven’t even got into the trumped-up drug charges, which is why they had helos in the air, further confusing the issue of who shot whom from where and totally screwing with the accousitics.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Yes.
When you have to go through that dog & pony show to set up an insult, it shows you have nothing.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Dog and pony…?
You are fast become my favorite wingnut.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:33 pm
What always bothered me about the Waco incident was that it did not even need to happen at all. David Koresh went into Waco every week to go shopping for groceries. If they wanted to arrest him, then arrest him there and you would not have had to attack the compound and kill all those kids.
It was the decision made under the mandate of Ms Reno that caused all those problems and nothing she can say or do at this point in time will change that. I hope she dreams about the screams and cries of those kids burned to death because of her stupid decisions.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:37 pm
I’m no wingnut. But then, you think Reynolds is one. What’s the criteria for that? Doesn’t vote the way you do? Doesn’t agree with you on everything? Just curious.
And yes, dog and pony. You go through a couple of ‘graphs stating I don’t know something and use it incorrectly in an effort to deflect criticism; then acknowledge I do, but for the wrong reasons. And I’m still wrong. Your insults are contradictory. Well, which is it?
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Not that I think it will do any good, but:
Iraq is a country, established by fiat by other countries dividing something on a map, completely ignoring who actually lived in the area.
No one currently in power, in any department, did this.
The declaration of war by the exectutive branch, and ratified by the legislative branch, on mulitple occasions, is responisble for the war. Both of them. Don’t ask me who was responsible for the bombing runs during Clinton, ’cause I wasn’t paying attention. Attempting to use a country name or a current war zone to discuss excesses by the JUDICIAL BRANCH of MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS is going to lead to heavy amounts of eye-rolling.
If you wish to make the arguement that we’ve had less than stellar reporting, that the Times has just run stories on how documents siezed from the Iraqis shouldn’t have been released because they could tell Tehran how to make nukes, that may be we don’t know everything we think we do, and that the alphabet soup of agencies not only might not be too sure of what each other are doing, but aren’t always sure themselves, that’s fine. But you have to type it out, because otherwise, I’m going to assume I can just say DeKalb County and act smug.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:49 pm
“If we dismiss a person’s opinion because of prir bad acts”,etc per LK is just ridiculous.Everyone’s reputation is dependent on prior judgements.And we’re not talking about a minor mistake.Waco-lots o f dead people,for no god reason,Elian Gonzalez-back to Cuba,refusing to empower independent investigation despite her underlings request.This woman is the Babe Ruth of fuck ups.
And these acts f cosmic stupidity were before the Parkinson’s kicked in.
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:29 pm
If you can not distinguish between what Reno did,for better or worse,asher job, or how her departmentsxcrewed up, with what the Bush administration is putting into law, then you ought not simply use such smart-assed wise remarks…Say something that makes sense. Any simpleton can call names. Children do it all the time.
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Again, bad judgements in the past should not preclude you from doing good deeds currently (and Reno has has bi-partisan co-actors). And,if bad judgements in the past are reason for disqualification, then W can no longer act (as if he ever did, since he is an idiot, and only acts at the behest of others - he’s a puppet).
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:45 pm
Oh can’t we all get along?
Actually no. That would require some people to grow up.
When Hillary runs for President in 2008 please remember that this logic that brought Waco should be a consideration. Reno was in way over her head. But no adults intervened. Why? Because there were none. The idea that Reno has any standing to call for any investigation is comical.
No event in American history compares to Waco. It shouldn’t have happened. Yes, this disqualifies Reno from even speaking. No soup for Reno.
What kind of person uses Janet Reno as a role model?
November 23rd, 2006 at 8:45 am
Reno (Bush) was (is) in way over her (his) head. But no adults intervened. Why? Because there were none. The idea that Reno (Bush) has any standing to call for any investigation is comical (last thing Bush wants is an investigation, of anything).
No event in American history compares to Waco (Iraq). It shouldn’t have happened. Yes, this disqualifies Reno (Bush) from even speaking. No soup for Reno (Bush).
What kind of person uses Janet Reno (George Bush) as a role model?
November 23rd, 2006 at 11:37 am
Glad to be source material for you lk. See if you can write your own material now.
Plagiarism is the goofiest form of flattery.
Are too, am not, rinse and repeat.
November 23rd, 2006 at 4:01 pm
#9 - I am unable to write my own material. I rely on the goodness of others’ (material). When I can’t find good material, I use yours, and others like you who draw a straight line between H Clinton and Waco. Under that logic, Laura Bush bears responsibity for Katrina (not the hurricane, the man-made disaster afterwards). And what about Nancy Regan and the marine barracks disaster in Lebanon? I know I’ll never forgive Mamie for the U-2 incident. Eleanor and pearl Harbor? Your logic is Hillary = Bill, you hate Bill, therefore you hate Hillary. My wife is very glad she does not get equated to me. But I wonder, maybe it’s the turkey high I am experiencing.
November 23rd, 2006 at 5:01 pm
In the last 26 years the top 4 levels of the Clinton Administration were most well known for lacking: honesty, integrity,and competence. Reno was in the second level so of course she lacks all 3. Only the Jihadists pay her any mind.
November 23rd, 2006 at 7:36 pm
lk, catch up. I have read both “Trolling for Idiots” and Uncle’s “21 Things Online Debate Has Taught Me”.
Junior High School Trolling tactics don’t fly here. Try harder. Try issues, issues are good. Play rope a dope over at LGF. Somebody will engage you there.
November 23rd, 2006 at 9:42 pm
#9 - I did answer your comment, but the site administrator did not allow me to comment. Probably some snafu, certainly not anything else. Have a great Thanksgiving, and get lots of shopping done tomorrow (the Wal Mart boycott is off!). lk
November 24th, 2006 at 10:03 am
So if there’s one thing we’ve learned from all this discussion, what would it be? For me, it’s that if Bush, after toppling Saddam, had said, “Well, we didn’t find any WMDs, but . . . Saddam was a child molester! Yeah, child molester–that’s the ticket!” he’d have gotten much more support for from the Left for the war in Iraq.