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Big box store security guard tries to disarm law-abiding permit holder.

Another reason why Open Carry is not something I do.

Posted in uncategorized on December 31st, 2009 by SayUncle | RSS 2.0 |

53 Responses to “An account”

Robb Allen Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Again, this happened because not enough people OC, not because OC is a bad idea.

You don’t see whites only bathroom in those Big Box stores any more, do you?
divemedic Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
I had a Best Buy guard want to see what the bulge was at my waistband. I told him it was none of his business. He tried to grab me. I walked out. I am not sure what would have gone down if he and his fellow employees had tackled me, but it would not have been good for anyone.

Concealed doesn’t always work well, either.
Spook45 Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 1:13 pm
WOW; Thats a good way to ……GET SHOT??! This is a good case of the overzelious store idiot powertripping. I have a freind who had a similer encounter at a Walmart. He was using a fanny pack, but it was noticable, when the store personel(a stupid cart pusher I think) stopped him, they argued discreetly and the Off duty LEO that was working in the store approached and asked my friend, DO you have a gun? he said why yes officer I do, he said Do you have a permit? He rplied why yes sir, as a matter of fact I do, would you like to see it? The officer replied, no thats OK, and he turned the Commie mart employee and states, ITS LEGAL, LEAVE HIM ALONE and quietly walked away. I avoid this type of problem buy A)keeping my weap. concealed and B) NOT SHOPPING AT COMMIE MART BUY MORE AMMO
Weer'd Beard Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 1:17 pm
+1 to Robb, granted I’m not a fan of OC just because I’m adverse to the hassle this man is going through. If I’m in a big-box I just want to get what I came for and get out…if I’m with my wife I’m there to get what I came for in 10 mins, then spend the next 40 bitching about how slow she shops.

But in this case the story of the gentleman (and what potentially sounds like divemedic encountered) is assault. I’m pretty sure they can ask you all the questions in the world, and ask you to leave, but to lay a hand on you for anything but self-defense is a no-no.

I’m not sure if there’s an additional charge for attempting to grab another man’s gun, but that’s even worse.

(One HUGE fear I have is if I ever have to be disarmed by a Police officer, that the officer won’t be familiar or safe with my gun and have an ND with me as the backstop…and that’s two willing participants, attempting to strong-arm a piece is a good way to get SOMEBODY shot, and I’d rather NOBODY got shot if I can help it)
Bob Dole Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Again, second Rob’s comment. Its because not enough people OC.
Caleb Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Am I the only tempted to call bs on this story?
Bob S. Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Isn’t this sort of blaming the victim?

The man was exercising his legal right and you pass up the opportunity to call for more education about our rights?

This is what I don’t get about the “opposition” to open carry. Why not advocate writing to papers, calling the corporate office demanding their employees actually know what the laws are?

A mistake was made — by the security guard– but we, the law abiding gun owners can use every one of these as a teaching moment.
Hartley Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Caleb, having read the thread on Georgia Packing, this individual seems to be well known there (including folks who appear to know him “face to face”), and has promised to reveal the details and video as soon as legally feasible. If he’s making it up, he would be giving up a fair amount of good will from his acquaintances & friends, it seems to me.

Unfortunately, the circumstances mean that the media will NOT pick up the story, so it won’t get validated (or invalidated) that way. If the guy sues the Security dude, then it will be “public” for sure..:-)
Caleb Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 1:55 pm
I did read the entire thread, and I guess what initially put up my BS flag about the whole thing was the way the story was told, very “I’m so badass it hurts”. After reading the entire thing, I’ll withdraw my call of shenanigans.
alan Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Caleb, I think a shenanigans call is always appropriate. If the story proves to be true then great, but there have been WAY too many urban legend stories and made up BS on the Internet to not take everything with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.
Paul Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Those that have pointed out that the security guard did not have any right to try and disarm the guy are correct. Nor did he have a duty to do so.

Personally, I would press assualt charges againest the guard. Could probably press a damages suit against the guard firm.

It did come off a little hokey, but I wonder what any of use would do in a similar situation. LEO’s train for that on a regular basis. I know their training is, how should we say, intense.

Makes a pocket gun look a little better.
The Freeholder Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Not assault–battery. As I read the thread no assault ever took place. I’d also consider a civil suit against the guard, his company and the unnamed big box store. Given the level of hurt inflicted (justified in my eyes, but I have no real say there), it might make a very useful bargaining chip.
A Horse Thief Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 4:11 pm
I agree with SayUncle. This is exactly why I don’t personally open carry. This guy was exposed to this situation because his gun was not concealed.

I am not saying it is right, or that he shouldn’t open carry. What I am saying is that I carry concealed precisely to avoid situations like the one described. My obligations to my family demand it.
chris Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Someone trying to disarm me by force is attempted armed robbery, I will treat it as such.
Flighterdoc Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 4:57 pm
I rarely OC for a variety of reasons (mainly because I have CCW’s) … but that doesn’t mean that I can’t be subjected to the same sort of unprovoked attack by some Paul Bart lookalike.

Fortunately the victim in this situation isn’t being prosecuted, and it seems that Georgia law provides immunity for his defensive actions as well.

As far as suing the guard, why? Think he’s got any assets worth having? No doubt he’s going to be off work for some period (maybe collecting workmans comp, maybe not since it seems his actions were out of line), he’s got a torn meniscus in his knee, a broken nose and jaw. He’ll be sipping his meals for a few weeks thinking about how stupid he was, and maybe he’ll figure out how to behave in the company of adults in the future.

Sue the store chain, and perhaps the security contractor. They have the cash, and they allowed this cretin to commit aggravated assault or battery on, and attempted robbery of a law-abiding citizen.
straightarrow Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Just how would he have written this without charges of “hokeyism”. It was short, sweet, had the details of the encounter and ended.

Why do you think that was hokey or BS? My crying Christ, I could never tell you some of the things I have done, your heart would explode.

He didn’t sound the least like “I’m a badass.” Just an ordinary guy doing what he should have done and being fortunate enough that it worked out for him. Not everybody thinks it necessary to lose to prove your a good guy. Get over yourselves.
AntiCitizenOne Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 5:09 pm
“whats the bulge on your hip?”

“coleostomy bag”

that usually shuts them up…

I think.
Caleb Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 5:19 pm
You’ve obviously not be around the internet for very long, SA.
Kirk Parker Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 5:19 pm
“Another reason why Open Carry is not something I do.”

How does that follow? Look, the OCer here has done the public a great favor. If not for this incident, this completely unqualified, unsuitable person would still be working today as a security guard.
Wolfwood Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 6:02 pm
As I read the thread no assault ever took place.

The assault was when the author perceived the guard trying to use force against him. The battery was when the guard laid a hand on the author to restrain him. Furthermore, the assault was one that threatened deadly force and, had it succeeded, the author would have been justified in using deadly force against him.

IANAL(y). TINLA.
Linoge Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Another reason why Open Carry is not something I do.

So the approaching-a-hundred times that I have gone into a Big Box Store open carrying with nary a response from the security guards, employees, and customers should easily outweigh it, right?

One anecdote to another, and all that…
mariner Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 6:15 pm
I would have thought it impossible to get to “battery” without “assault”, but I’m just a sailor.
Wolfwood Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Assault is dependent on perceiving the attack (”apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact”). If I coldcock you you from behind, that’s only battery. If you see me swinging but deftly sidestep my clumsy attempt, that’s only assault.

IANAL(y). TINLA.
Paul Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 8:49 pm
This is why I prefer CONCEALED CARRY. If they don’t know it’s there, they can’t grab it.

Now picture some regular joe packing openly and some local thugs decide they need another roscoe. Would not be all that hard to get them from behind and do a fast grab.

So, keep it low level and make it a surprise to anyone who tries to harm you or others around you.
MH in GA Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Despite the bravado of its advocates, this IS a reason why I don’t OC. I’m not looking for a fight from some misguided rent-a-cop, and I’m not looking for an extended conversation with the real cops. Sorry, but there are more effective ways from me to express my 2nd Amendment rights, and I can defend myself by carrying concealed very well. But for those who do want to draw attention to themselves (look at me, I have a gun!), to each his own. Personally, I’d like a society where OC was commonplace and accepted, but that’s not where we live.
ExUrbanKevin Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 9:43 pm
I think this would have happened if some who was carrying concealed had inadvertently flashed his sidearm. It’s not an open carry thing, it’s a moronic Rambo-wannabe mall cop who should be very, very glad he got away with ONLY a broken jaw and torn meniscus.
chris Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 10:18 pm
For all those that are talking about this being a reason not to open carry… This is the first documented case (and not even documented in the news) I have seen in the last 3 years of looking for stories where someone tried to grab someones gun off their belt.

And this wasnt even a criminal trying to steal the gun… this was an idiot trying to be a hero. I have still yet to hear of a person actually getting their gun stolen from them while open carrying.
Robb Allen Says:
December 31st, 2009 at 11:01 pm
There are legitimate reasons to want to avoid Open Carry. Having your gun taken from you is not one of them.

How many cops are jumped and have their guns stolen? I mean, if thugs are looking for easy guns (I guess stealing them takes too much effort these days), why aren’t they picking on cops? Cops have guns and have minimal retention training. If smash and grabs were as common as people make them out to be, why aren’t there dozens of stories a month? I expect the same behavior from my side as I demand of the anti-gunners – Show me the proof that this is the case.

Not everyone wants to deal with the hassle. I understand and respect that. I have a family that relies on me to provide for them and cannot afford to push issues as hard as I would like. I can’t OC because I live in Florida but I assure you, I would if it were legal. Not because I want to make a political statement – I can do that with a bumper sticker or a t-shirt – but because it is both more comfortable given our climate, and we need more people willing to get our culture back into the mainstream, and we can’t do it if everyone conceals.

Not everyone is a good ambassador to gun ownership, but open carrying is no different than ownership in general. If you value freedom, then you must deal with the fact that some people are going to do stupid things. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t support those who are decent carriers.

Just like some thugs will commit crimes with guns, we’re still supportive of other gun owners because we know the criminals are an infinitesimally small percentage and that by and large, gun ownership is a benefit to society. I am perfectly content with people not desiring to OC themselves because of the hassle, but it bugs me to no end to see the dismissive attitude towards those who do when you should be glad someone is willing to put up with everything to get guns back into the main stream.

OC isn’t a political statement for me, it’s an awareness statement. Sure, some idiots are ‘loud and proud’, but you gotta let the idiots Darwin themselves.
walrus Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 12:52 am
I agree with the original statement, open carry is stupid. Yeah – it’s your right, but it doesn’t offer any significant advantages over CC and leads to situations like this, with someone in the hospital. (On a lighter note, man I want to see that video)
dave Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 2:36 am
I have no strong convictions either way regarding open carry, other than do what you want to do. I personally don’t do it, simply out of not wanting to have to deal with talking to the cops when some law-ignorant hippie calls in a “man with a gun.”

Regarding the story: if true (and I don’t yet have any reason to believe it isn’t), this guy handled the situation like a pro and I am suitably impressed.
chris Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 2:50 am
but it doesn’t offer any significant advantages over CC

The hell it doesnt.

First it is 100x more comfortable for me to carry a full sized gun OWB than it is to carry it IWB. Second, there is a sure bet that it is a quicker draw if needed. Third, I have accepted that it is a form of activism and diplomacy for those that might be interested in why I am carrying. Fourth, my OWB holster cost me $30, a comfortable IWB holster would run me $80 – $100 and would be nowhere near as comfortable as my OWB holster.

I have yet to have anyone harass me, call the cops on me, try to take my gun or run in panic simply at the sight of my gun on my hip.
straightarrow Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 4:00 am
MH said,” Personally, I’d like a society where OC was commonplace and accepted, but that’s not where we live.”

Uh huh and it never will be as long as people are too intimidated to do it. So, I guess you wouldn’t like it all that much since you don’t believe in investment in it.

Yeah,Caleb, I just started last night. Really? Is that the best you could do? Hell, most people at least call names when they don’t have anything.
Jake Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 4:44 am
“Sure, some idiots are ‘loud and proud’, but you gotta let the idiots Darwin themselves.”

Keep in mind that ‘loud and proud’ has it’s uses, too. Look at the gay rights movement – they spent years trying to be inoffensive and “normal” looking, and the movement stagnated and was ignored. After the Stonewall Riots, the ‘loud and proud’ people started making themselves visible, and brought attention to the movement as a whole – and suddenly they started making progress.

Not everyone being ‘loud and proud’ is an idiot, they’re just willing to take the abuse to bring the issue to light, while letting others use their “outrageousness” and visibility to look reasonable to those who might have an open mind.
Kidding yourself Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 5:23 am
If you are using a permit to conceal carry your gun you are NOT exercising a right, just a privileged that you have agreed that permit provides you, (with your signature showing your agreement). If that’s how you carry fine, but a right not exercised is a right lost. All those permit holders wanna tell me when you ARE exercising your right to bear arms?
divemedic Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 7:09 am
Walrus: If OC offers no real advantages over CC, then ask yourself why all of the nation’s police OC.
1 OWB is more comfortable
2 Draw is faster
3 In Florida, where I live, have you ever tried to conceal a full sized handgun under lightweight summer clothes?
4 You are less limited in your wardrobe with OC
M4Finny Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 9:51 am
Really boils down to what the culture of the City, County and State is. OC is (or was) different in a more rural town in Georgia from let’s say … Atlanta, Seattle or Detroit? In the latter three, you may simply get shot in the head first and then disarmed on the street.

Having lived in Georgia myself while in the military, I can remember seeing almost everyone doing their shopping OC. Being polite in aisle five of the Piggly Wiggly while reaching for breakfast cereal take on a whole new meaning. Seems like times are changing in Georgia. Where I live, it is legal to OC. I don’t do it because I choose not to. I would rather the wolves try and guess just who will be the sheep and who will be the sheepdog. Eyes and mannerisms are very telling and normally, if you are alert, you can pick up on the cues of someone casing your person, waistband area, car, home, etc. Putting your sidearm “out there” IMHO where I live, isn’t too savvy. It would be nice if it weren’t so, but it is just that way for me. This is just another issue of personal preference in States where it is legal to OC.
john Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 12:36 pm
I usually Conceal Carry my firearm, but I am grateful to all who OC. And now I am especially grateful to the person in the story. I know I am a printing or accidental reveal away from being mistreated the way he was. People who OC and OC and handle themselves correctly when confronted make it less likely I am to be hassled as a concealed bearer of firearms.
RML Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Anti-capitalist post!
Texas Jack Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Both sides have good points. A polite, well-dressed man (or woman) with a visible handgun will help get others used to the idea that “gun” does not equal “bad”. Concealed handguns (Texas calls it a “CHL”) almost certainly have a chilling effect on would-be thugs, making them wonder who might be armed. I think, if Texas allowed open carry, I probably would, sometimes. For me, though, it would be a matter of safety. Under current Texas law, an observed accidental exposure of my handgun can cost me my CHL. Open carry would relieve me of that worry.

Added thought: Anybody ever heard of a thief or mugger who openly carried his weapon?
Kirk Parker Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 4:11 pm
M4Finny,

You know nothing of Seattle. Washington State is one of the leaders in OC, most definitely including Seattle. The Seattle Police Department is quite well versed on the legality of OC, despite the ridiculous posturing of the (now-happily-former) mayor. Check out the Washington forum on OpenCarry.org and see for yourself.
Big Gay Al Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 6:53 pm
I’d say the story is less on why OC is a bad idea, and more of a story on why security guards need more training. I have worked as a security officer for over 20 years, and I have NEVER entertained doing something that stupid. But then again, the state I started working in, requires at least 20 hours of state approved training, for unarmed, and 40 hours for armed security.

You have to know what you can and can’t do as a security officer. Frankly, I’ll be surprised if the guard isn’t prosecuted for assault and battery.
M4Finny Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 8:16 pm
Okay Kirk Parker, I now nothing of Seattle. I just threw that one in there as an example of a major city. My mistake to mention your fair city. I didn’t mean to raise your hackles or hurt your tender feelings. Happy New Year.
M4Finny Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 8:16 pm
“now” should read “know”.
Kirk Parker Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 8:38 pm
M4Finny,

There are enough cities where gun rights really are restricted (NYC, Chicago, DC) and/or where violent crime really is high (Chicago, DC, New Orleans) that there’s no reason to go using one where it’s neither.
M4Finny Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Like I said Kirk my mistake, I am truly very sorry for offending you and anyone else who engages in OC while in Seattle. Now tell me, is the word “Seattle” the only item that you gleaned from my posting of 9:51 a.m. today? I mean, I was simply sharing my opinion and observations. The main thrust of my post was not to malign Seattle, okay?
Some Mall Ninja Says:
January 1st, 2010 at 11:22 pm
Um, when I read the “article” (forum post), guy’s description of his awesome judo moves held the distinct aroma of Gecko 45. I doubt the guy’s claimed encounter actually happened.

Anyways, if you are concealed carrying and you let your pistol be seen, you are an idiot if you think anything good can come out of that. Best case scenario is someone objects.
straightarrow Says:
January 2nd, 2010 at 4:31 am
Mall Ninja, there wasn’t anything in the least descriptive of “awesome judo moves”. Street fight moves, maybe. I resent your attempt and the attempt of others here to try to buck up opinion by ascribing to the man things he never said or even intimated.

Obviously, you have lived a very peaceful life and never really engaged in a physical altercation where “it” was on the line. For instance, did you miss the part where he described his “roundhouse punch”. Strictly amateur hour, not “awesome judo moves”, but effective if the opponent is at least as amateurish. Oh, and slow.

Methinks you have the aroma of bullshit.
PepperPatriot Says:
January 2nd, 2010 at 12:05 pm
I opencarry, and I can tell you one thing:

If someone makes a grab for your firearm you should assume they intend to use it on you. The guard got off lucky…

If you wish not opencarry because there are idiots in the world, so be it! I opencarry because there are idiot, criminals and crazies in the world.

That is the great thing about freedom, we do not have to make the same choices with it.
Some Mall Ninja Says:
January 2nd, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Straightarrow, you seem to be pretty invested in this clown’s story. Well, let’s let the hero describe his “awesome judo moves” for himself:

Security guard today just tried to physically dis-arm me. Grabbed my right arm with his left hand and attempted to grab my pistol grip with his right. Elbow to the face and a back step rear kick/shin scrape to his right knee/shin…turned and hit him with a full body roundhouse punch. Knocked his a$$ out cold. Because the cops were called I can’t give full details until everything is settled but it was at a big box store.

You’re right, I do lead a fairly peaceful life, now. But I have been in some nasty scrapes before, and I can definitely tell you that I don’t remember what awesome “roundhouse” punches I threw, and the other guy sure as hell didn’t get his “a$$ knocked out cold.” In fact, when I was in college, I bounced drunks from bars for extra money, and I can definitely tell you that I saw some big guys get hit with some heavy stuff, and no one gets “knocked out cold.”

Maybe this guy is really as hardcore as he claims, maybe not. But I’m calling shenanigans because I definitely do smell “the aroma of bullshit.”

p.s. If you would like, I will transfer my name to you, since I don’t think I am a serious enough operator to deserve it. I am strictly amateur hour, at best, and far too peaceful to be properly referred to as a ninja. I really only picked it as a sarcastic dig, but I’m happy to call you the only true ninja here.
M Gallo Says:
January 2nd, 2010 at 12:46 pm
So, for the OC bigots, which is better in WI? To CCW illegally, or OC legally?
M4Finny Says:
January 2nd, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Getting pretty intense ….. glad no one here carries a firearm on a regular basis (CCW or OC) …. : ) *humor*

Lighten up everyone (*including me) – we’re all friends here.
straightarrow Says:
January 4th, 2010 at 4:42 am
No Ninja here, either, but people can and do get knocked out cold. Sometimes by the punch, as often as not, by the floor or hard surface the head bounces off of. The punch you don’t see can knock you out even if it is far less powerful than others you have been hit with. The punch that hits you in the temple area and moves your head to the side can do it. That’s why left hooks are a boxer’s “knockout punch”. The side to side slamming of the brain is less endurable than a forward and back . That’s just the way it is.

As far as “scrapes” go, I can remember some that to this day will start my adrenaline flowing just from the memory. So, take that into account when you decide whether he was lying, bragging or just excited as it was so recent.

I didn’t find a damn thing he said to be unbelievable. Except for the guy trying to take his gun, it seemed pretty mild to me.
LP in VA Says:
January 5th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
I’m glad I live in Virginia! All sorts of things would happen… first of all, obvious assault charges on the idiot guarding the front door. Second, I’m not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express and, I think “contributory negligence” would fall into this case and protect one from suit by said idiot. Finally, you would have a pretty easy law suit on the big box here in VA, real cops are successfully sued for less than that a couple times a year and I can only imagine what you could get from the big box store.

With the General Assembly poised to pass all sorts of new pro-gun and pro-carry laws, Virginia is THE place to live for the OC and CC citizen!

Remember, I do this to entertain me, not you.

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