What caliber for protest?
I am a life member of the Second Amendment Foundation. They do good work. And I find it hard to gin up the internet rage machine over Alan Gottlieb’s comments here:
We are not a fan of armed protests and highly discourage that, said Alan Gottlieb, the founder and executive vice president of the SAF. Firearms serve a purpose, and the purpose is not a mouthpiece. Its to defend yourself. If you are carrying it to make a political point, we are not going to support that.
He’s right. But doesn’t go far enough. Don’t even go to the protests. There’s bound to a dangerous environment with each group itching for some confrontation. Don’t go. No good can come from it. That said, sure I think you have a right to do that. But don’t. And Gottlieb is not saying you don’t have such a right. He’s saying he doesn’t support it. Just like me. It’s dumb.
Meanwhile, in the town up the road, the racists are gonna have a rally and the fascists are going to counter protest. And the city has banned weapons from the rally:
Police will prohibit firearms and any other weapons at a rally that’s expected to pit white supremacists against counter-demonstrators on the site of a Fort Sanders monument honoring Confederate soldiers Saturday, city officials said.
All participants will be screened with a metal detector for weapons and other prohibited items “in compliance with state law” before they’re allowed to enter one of the established demonstration zones, Knoxville Mayor Madeline Rogero’s office announced Wednesday.
“Our officers will be there to maintain order and ensure that everybody is free to speak their piece,” Rogero said. “These are volatile times, and I strongly urge everyone to refrain from antagonism. We can have these discussions as a community without resorting to angry rhetoric or violence.”
They’re also restricting parking and traffic in the area. I’m not certain how the city can ban those with valid carry permits from carrying in a public space, as that is preempted, generally, by state law. I’m not sure how they’ve managed to do that. I mean, I guess I could go there strapped and make a big scene and challenge the law. But I won’t. Because that’s dumb.
August 24th, 2017 at 7:14 pm
I think that’s allowed as of July 1.
August 24th, 2017 at 7:49 pm
I generally agree with Uncle here.
My arms are for when the shit comes to me and I can’t avoid it. Mostly they’re for fun.
Anyway, both alleged “sides” of the protests are just as likely organized by the same people. What’s the difference between a white supremacist (all Democrats), a Fascist (a member of the Fascisti in Italy [a version of Marxism] in the early 20th Century) and an “antifa”? Probably not enough to matter, being that none of them appear in any way to understand what they’re advocating. Certainly none of them have come out with any halfway logical argument. Yeah; my bet is that they’re all part of the same movement, which is fundamentally anti-American, whether they know it or not.
Just don’t block my way, ‘cause I won’t tolerate that. I’ll do my best to avoid your shitty towns and shitty, Marxist-infected cities, but sometimes I have business and I can’t always avoid them.
The main problem I’ve seen is that the police don’t seem to understand what it means to enforce the law, keeping the peace and keeping the roads open. Solve that problem and the rest takes care of itself. Show up with automatic rifles and put away the usual riot gear, place belt-fed machineguns in plain view on the rooftops, tell everyone there that the second anyone gets violent the guns will do the talking, and there will be not a trace of violence. That’s what it means to keep the peace. Instead they come with shields and gas grenades, and so the people know they’ll be able to break things, beat people up and light fires without being shot. They’ll even try to show off by getting in the gas clouds and throwing the grenades back at the dumb cops. Police are getting exactly what they (unknowingly) ask for in a situiation like that.
Pussies end up escalating the violence because everyone knows they won’t, or can’t, get serious. On the other hand, one adult in the room will calm everything down, by his mere presence, and no one gets hurt. America, being pussified, is thereby calling for more violence.
The anarchists won’t try that shit in Idaho, except maybe in Boise. They just find a blue city in which to do it.
August 24th, 2017 at 7:51 pm
Lyle, looove the “white supremacists against counter-demonstrators” distinction.
August 24th, 2017 at 8:30 pm
What I said yesterday:
“The incitements and violence are just fringe wackjobs vs. fringe mercenary wackjobs. The fomer are just wackjobs except to the extent some may be false-flag wackjobs, while the latter are on the payroll of leftist elites with very specific goals of obstruction and destruction, and with the complicity of their media, academics, celebrities et al.”
Take Unc’s advice and the only ones that show up will be the various wackjobs. Well, them and representatives of those complicit groups. You know, just to be sure there’s plenty of words, pics, and video so everybody knows which wackjobs are the real wackjobs in case Trump starts saying again that they’re all wackjobs.
That’s how you get wackjobs stirred up all over, and work towards that civil war that they want. so. bad.
Yeah, stay home. Then if the wackjob violence comes to you, you can give some disproportionate violence back.
August 24th, 2017 at 8:38 pm
People that make a stink are why we have any rights at all. Everyone else just sits in the back of the bus like they’re told.
God bless the assholes
August 24th, 2017 at 10:14 pm
“I mean, I guess I could go there strapped and make a big scene and challenge the law. But I won’t. Because that’s dumb.”
Besides, Leonard Embody has you covered.
August 25th, 2017 at 1:21 am
I’d think that the only firearm useful in a mob riot would be a sniper with a rifle on overwatch. And you aren’t ever going to be able to justify that in court.
One thing to keep in mind, if you are carrying, then you cannot engage in the sporting event of mob violence, or really even aggressive yelling. Being armed means you have to be nice until someone crosses the imminent threat line.
August 25th, 2017 at 8:29 am
“Restricted parking” , huh? Does that apply to buses bringing in “counter-protesters”?
August 25th, 2017 at 8:45 am
People often can’t distinguish someone saying “X is a bad idea” from “X should be prohibited”
As far as “how can they do that” I expect its more of a functional prohibition than a legal one. By the time someone makes a stink about it through the courts, the protest is over and it’s moot…..
August 25th, 2017 at 9:00 am
Are they really “white supremacists?” The media seems unable to distinguish between people who want to preserve history and nazis. Yet the other side, which usually includes a lot of violent extremists, are invariably described as peaceful protesters.
August 25th, 2017 at 9:06 am
I’d prefer a ZSU-23-4. Mobile, versatile, also good for crushing Prius and other clown cars.
August 25th, 2017 at 9:16 am
And “the other side” has been busy all over the country using criminal violence against property and people to shut down free speech. Their tactics are those of fascists and communists, competing far leftists. The leftist media extols theim using “violence for peace”.
August 25th, 2017 at 9:41 am
@ Joe Hooker, oh, they are able to disinguish. They are intentionally engaging in bigotry to label anyone against whom violent leftist “counter-protesters” oppose as “white supremacists” and “Nazis”, although groups like Antifa and BLM use Nazi and Communist tactics.
August 25th, 2017 at 9:57 am
Can’t we just set up a zone, arm the shit out of all of them, and then wait for the eventual happy conclusion?
August 25th, 2017 at 10:22 am
Re: armed protesters: There were armed protesters at the Charlottesville debacle, fortunately they were on the side of sanity (neither Nazis nor Antifa) and no shots were fired. Their presence there was a nullity if they had hopes of demonstrating anything about responsible armed protest, as far as the press went, because nobody got shot, and especially no lefties got shot.
The previous best known armed protester was a Black man wearing a safely slung AR15 at an anti-Obama protest. MSNBC cropped his picture to avoid mentioning that the anti-Obama protester was Black, until ridiculed into admitting they’d done that. He was then branded a race traitor by the left and demonized for carrying a firearm at a political rally by the media.
Unless an armed protester, preferably a gay female with dark skin, saves a litter of kittens from a burning building during a protest, expect the intersectionality of 2nd Amendment exercise with First Amendment protests to be downplayed into nonexistence by the media, unless it can be used to demonize gun owners as Nazis, which will happen anyway.
My response: You’re gonna be demonized in the media for your existence as a gun owner, let alone carrying at a protest. Carry openly at every protest possible just to get the authorities used to it, and to force the media to demonize you irrationally again and again.
Eventually “gun owner” will be as inert an epithet as racist, sexist, homophobe, Islamophobe, and every other damning but untrue thing the left says.
August 25th, 2017 at 11:49 am
Nailed it Uncle.
August 25th, 2017 at 11:59 am
@mikee, That’s it!
‘Eventually “gun owner” will be as inert an epithet as racist, sexist, homophobe, Islamophobe, and every other damning but untrue thing the left says.’
Yes, every group, viewpoint and person who expresses anything other than the radical left will be called a “white supremacist” against which Antifa and BLM violence will be justified by the media. Even former NBA great, Charles Barkley, a black man is so labeled:
http://www.theroot.com/charles-barkley-is-a-great-example-of-a-black-white-su-1798149722
August 25th, 2017 at 12:36 pm
Protests never accomplish anything politically.
They are simply group therapy.
August 25th, 2017 at 12:38 pm
I think this falls under the rule of “Don’t do stupid things with stupid people in stupid places at stupid times”
August 25th, 2017 at 3:38 pm
I agree with Jimbo here.
August 25th, 2017 at 6:18 pm
Ron W Says:
“Restricted parking” , huh? Does that apply to buses bringing in “counter-protesters”?
The parking is restricted by those busses taking up the space?
aerodawg Says:
“People often can’t distinguish someone saying ‘X is a bad idea’ from ‘X should be prohibited'”
To a Progressive there is no difference. All that is “bad” must be outlawed, and all that is “good” must be required by law. That’s one sure way to spot a Progressive.
It explains a Progressive’s overreaction anytime you comment on something; he believes you’re advocating for legislation because in his mind everything must be legislated. It’s the Totalitarian Mind, and it’s been gaining ground for generations.
August 25th, 2017 at 6:19 pm
Guns are for real protests – you and your neighbors need to stop rioters from burning down your business, school, or church.
August 25th, 2017 at 7:12 pm
” Don’t go to stupid places
Don’t associate with stupid people
Don’t do stupid things”.
There, that’s all I need to remember.
August 25th, 2017 at 7:16 pm
Why does the press keep confusing the issue with the “alt-right” label. Milo Y. from Briebart is alt-right. The KKK is leftist (started by a democrat, mostly populated by democrats). The Nazis were National Socialists (ie, patriotic) as opposed to democratic socialists (England and many other euro countries today) vs Communist (USSR) were all LEFT – just different flavors of left. And Fascist means enforced on all through gov’t power – ie, dictatorial. Which applies to Fascist Italy, Hitler’s Germany and all the east bloc countries under the thumb of the USSR until the breakup.
And the only thing ANY of these have in common (except the Antifa/BLM sub group) is for some reason they see the Confederacy as a symbol – as opposed to those of us who see it as a failed last stand for states rights and a part of our national history.
August 25th, 2017 at 7:45 pm
@dustydog, or your home.
August 25th, 2017 at 9:43 pm
@Patrick,
“Can’t we just set up a zone, arm the shit out of all of them, and then wait for the eventual happy conclusion?”
You know what? That ain’t a half bad idea.
“We” could arm the shit out of ourselves, a thousand true defenders of the constitution, front-slung at ready, but safely secured and sequestered in a designated area.
And it would be a happy conclusion because none of us would visit unprovoked violence on anyone…and no one would dare visit violence on us.
Would it be reported, ignored, televised, twisted, vilified? A thousand peaceful patriots making a silent patriotic statement of support for civil and constitutional rights. Could it be ignored?
Huh.
August 26th, 2017 at 9:37 pm
The civil disturbance is just an end run against preemption and CCW laws. It is fine to police ourselves and say do not go,especially while armed. But is a bad idea when government says it.
August 27th, 2017 at 12:47 am
Gottleib is based here in my state, and I’m well familiar with the ways of a guy who likes to play games with your rights.
He talks big as far a the CCRKBA, but his lobby efforts are lame at best, always seeking to gain “rights” by giving up others and having those losses codified in law.
In the I-594 battle, groups of random individuals did more than he and his lobby did. He tried to play trades with our rights to appease the antis. His strategy of a competing initiative was silly and doomed from the get go.
He then files a hopeless legal case in federal court to cover his tracks, and then cut and ran with no appeal when he lost.
Not a peep from him or his lobby in this state since, only fundraising by every means viable.
I’m not going to knock what SAF does or has accomplished. SAF is very targeted in what it does and can do, as it is constrained by it’s legal status.
For what it’s worth, the NRA has been equally absent and useless here on the state level. However lame or tactically inept Alan was here, at least he did SOMETHING. The NRA did fuck all. Threw us right under the bus.
August 27th, 2017 at 6:59 am
So, everyone who enters the “established demonstration zone” is guaranteed to be unarmed. Then, when the protest is over, you’ll have to leave your safe space into the crowd of antifa, with their clubs and bottles of urine. Am I paranoid or is this by design?
August 27th, 2017 at 10:23 am
Steve, I hate to burst your bubble but CCRKBA and SAF operate out of the same address:
12500 NE 10th PL. Bellevue, WA, 98005
August 27th, 2017 at 12:32 pm
@Penetty, “Am I paranoid or is this by design?” Oh no, that would be a conspiracy, and we’ve all been instructed that doesn’t happen.
August 27th, 2017 at 1:44 pm
IIRC, Colonel Cooper suggested the caliber for protest would be .22LR in a suppressed rifle. Lung shots on the lead protestors to knock the wind out of them.
Not that I recommend it. I just read it somewhere.
August 27th, 2017 at 1:48 pm
I’m one who has heavily criticized the antics of random OC activists who seem way too interested in the in-your-face approach to exercising their 2A rights.
But I’m not being facetious when I ponder the idea of a loosly organized group of legitimate and responsibly-behaved open carriers who preplan a location at various events for their silent exercise.
This is something SAF could and should organize that could do more than a million words to make our point.
Let the various wackjobs with their swastikas and their sheets and their clubs and their black masks do what they will while real constitutionalists stand their peaceful vigil and then exit enmasse just as peacefully, then plan for the next one.
I’m just not seeing a downside to this?
August 27th, 2017 at 3:07 pm
JTC, I see possible downside of two or more armed citizens, regardless of their demeanor, appearing at same place, could be construed as ‘conspiracy’
It’s not what’s rightful, it’s what the bastards can get away with to prosecute.
August 27th, 2017 at 3:36 pm
JTC
I see a down side What if antifi sprays your OC with pepper spray or hit them over the head with wood bats Or kick the crap and beat up the OC ? Will the OC not shoot in self defense and there goes OC rights.
Uncle is right . Just do not go while carrying. Too great of risk of being attacked
August 27th, 2017 at 3:53 pm
rickn8or, Yes I know that. SAF is, by nature of it’s tax a legal status, forbidden from engaging in political activity. They can either mount legal challenges or not. They cannot make deals of the sort Alan loves to make, like trading off, a safe storage law to stave off restrictions on private transfers.
Alan is anything but a gun rights purist. He is a gun rights moralist who wants to define your rights according to his own preferences.
August 27th, 2017 at 4:01 pm
A hundred plus shoulder-to-shoulder in a designated zone with long guns at low ready will be a powerful dissuader of such. And of course there would be full-time video. Just not seeing any antifa deciding to breech that zone and physically attack.
I am huge on situational control, and generally agree with avoiding mass crazy. But I do not like being told to vacate my rights and believe acquiescence will breed more of it. Has to end, and I think this kind of very organized gathering at these places and events would an effective and peaceful way to end it.
August 27th, 2017 at 4:03 pm
You’ll get no argument from me on this Steve.
August 27th, 2017 at 7:11 pm
@Fuz, I read something similar re: Bosnia and Kosovo where rioters and gangs in were kneecapped with improvised suppressed .22 LR. They were no longer available for usual criminal rioting activities and were then abulating with an identifiable limp.
August 28th, 2017 at 3:04 pm
I thought the proper caliber for violent riots was 12 pounders loaded with grapeshot?
August 28th, 2017 at 4:34 pm
Ron W:
The Israeli’s also use suppressed .22RF for riot control, but I don’t recall the specific body area targeted. IIRC, these are dedicated snipers on roofs.
August 28th, 2017 at 8:29 pm
@Will, yes, I’m aware of that. The instance I cited was in an area where there are rioters and looters attacking people without protection of LE and they used the .22 knee-capping for what would not be reported to the authorities but make it too costly for the renegades to continue.