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In your face

Consequence for carrying shotguns into libraries.


Dear folks coming here from this OpenCarry thread,

I cannot comment there, so I will here. Police your own. Carrying a shotgun into a library is not going to win hearts and minds. It’s going to turn people away. This bill is going to draw more attention to the incident that led this politician to propose the bill. And not your rights.

You have rights. We get that. But when you’re focusing on your right and acting like a jerk, people tend to focus on that whole being a jerk part. There are effective ways to to win hearts and minds with respect to OC. Flashing guns at librarians and toting a shotgun on your back are not some of those ways.

This is like the kiss-ins that gay groups used to have. I’m all for gay rights and support gay marriage. But I don’t think a bunch of gay dudes kissing at the mall is effective at converting people to their cause.

You guys suck at marketing. And that’s it.

Hugs and kisses,


P.S. Tell the guy carrying the shotgun around town to knock it off.

Update 2: Oh for fuck’s sake. One of these guys carried an AR-15 to a Ponderosa Steakhouse and was surprised to be asked to leave. Seriously, you’re not helping. Carry a handgun. Leave the rifles and shotties at home or in the car.

116 Responses to “In your face”

  1. Stan Says:

    Uncle the guy carrying the shotgun explained why he decided to carry a shotgun instead of a pistol in the article you linked. He didn’t want to worry about his winter coat covering his pistol. In Michigan carrying a concealed weapon is a felony good for up to five years in the klink and people have been arrested, charged, and convicted of carrying a concealed weapon even for just carrying a pistol in an IWB holster that was otherwise uncovered.

  2. BlueWaters Says:

    That second update might be the best laugh I have had on the internets since that Star Wars kid.

  3. Breda Says:

    And yet, there he is, standing in the article’s photo wearing both a pistol and a winter jacket. Funny, that.

  4. dustydog Says:

    Attractive, non-crazy people carrying guns openly = public support. If you aren’t a poster boy to begin with, don’t try to be a poster boy for our cause.

    Ugly people with guns makes people nervous.

  5. Stan Says:

    Maybe he decided not to carry the shotgun after the massive shit storm that erupted.

  6. TinCan Assassin Says:

    My comments on this subject are at But the short and skinny of it is I am in AZ, home of the AR-15 carrying Wookie Suiters at Presidential Events.

  7. SPQR Says:

    John Smith, February 16th, 2011 at 5:52 pm.

    You seem to want to double-down on the name calling.

    Consider yourself ignored.

  8. ExUrbanKevin Says:

    To quote St. Paul, “Everything is permitted to me, but not everything is beneficial.”

    Should open carry be banned? Of course not. It should be the law of the land.

    Dropping F-Bombs in a daycare may be permitted, but it doesn’t help the cause of free speech.

    Openly carrying a shotgun in a state where the open carry of pistols makes people nervous may be permitted, but it certainly isn’t beneficial.

  9. bushman Says:

    This issue illustrates a phenomenon with among some fellow hard core “gun rights” people that drives me bat shit crazy. They do not understand that the goal is to win. Unfortunately, in this country you win by getting people who are are sympathetic with you elected to office. The way that seems to get done in our overly divided country these days is to win over the mushy middle of the road voters. This type of shit is a loser with them every time. It only serves to convince the soccer mommies that we are all psychos that will harm their precious children. Wise the hell up, perception is everything. You can wipe your ass with your principals if you don’t have any power. We must convince the “independent” voters that CC, OC people are reasonable, responsible and not extreme. The trend has been going in that direction with the success of CC. Don’t screw it up. Also, please stop citing Heller and Macdonald as if it will always be the law of the land. If we get another term of BO and ,god forbid, he gets another SC appointment they will overturn or so severely limit those precedents that they will be meaningless. Winning the argument and the battle is the only goal.

  10. ATLien Says:

    I’m tired of dancing around this. Someone needs to say it.

    John Smith- YOU are an asshole. I had an inkling after the gay thread, but you are truly a jackass. Bill- YOU are an asshole, too. Either you two are just arguing out of your asses just to argue, or, if you believe 100% of the bullshit you’re shoveling, you’re both sociopaths that need help.

    Who gets to decide, you ask? I get to fucking decide, that who. Uncle’s right, but unlike him, I’ll call you idiots out.

    Here’s your first lesson- look up “reductio ad absurdum” and “false dilemma”. You’re going through logical fallacies like a Ferrari goes through gasoline. This kind of jackassery is what gets in the media, and the media is NOT ON YOUR SIDE. Way to push the people who normally wouldn’t care (the middle) into the arms of your adversary.

    Second lesson- people watch tv and movies. we know you’re cool and read nothing but Jeff Cooper, but the Middle watches TV. When people open carry long guns, it means “someone is about to get shot.” After seeing this hundreds of times, guess what people think when you carry a long gun to the steakhouse or the library? People don’t like to think they’re about to get shot, so don’t do that, idiot. You know where people open carry long guns? Shitholes like Somalia and Nigeria. Think about that.

    As for johnny shotgun- You’re 18, and you want to protect yourself? Carry a shotgun or rifle into a library. When the local violent jilted lover/bandit/general douchetard comes in to case the place, he sees johnny shotgun in the periodicals. He sneaks up behind him and shoots him first. Well played, dumb ass johnny shotgun. You just FAILED.

    I LOVE guns and I support the RKBA. Hell, ask people here who have seen me post. I’ll fight the 2nd revolution tomorrow and i generally think cops are douchebags. But i also know an asshole when i see one.

    Many others here have said it better, but i’ll reiterate: DON’T BE A DICK. This shit is too serious for your teenage rebellion bullshit.

    Unc, if I offended you with this, I’m truly sorry. I’ll buy you a steak or something to make up for it.

  11. Dragon Says:

    Perception is *everything*, folks. If you are *perceived* as a threat, you will be labeled as such, and those in positions of power (read: elected officials) who wish to keep their cushy jobs will respond to the bleating of the sheep who are frightened, and pass new law / change old law to make the sheep feel safer by taking away *the right* because the few in the population can’t figure out how to separate *the right* from *the right thing to do*

    And therein lies the problem with the actions of those folk who were fully within their rights, according to the letter of the law. They acted as *anarchists*, not as members of a civil society.

    And yes, I understand the desire of the rabid OC crowd to make their point, loudly, with a *damn the torpedoes* attitude, but that is just plain wrong where firearms are concerned. The reason is that firearms *are* deadly weapons, period. They are tools used to kill, either for sport, for food, or in war. People see these tools as a threat to their *lives*, and as such they want these tools removed from their midst. Our job, as folks who wish to see the expansion of firearm freedoms, is to build *trust* in the sheeple. The way we do that is to wear the same firearms at our sides as the cops wear, so as to be able to point to it and say that it is no different than the standard issue police gear. Once that is accepted, then we move on to polished chrome 1911′s, Les Baer’s, Kimbers, etc.

    Start small and inconspicuous. Then slowly move to small and conspicuous, then to a bit larger…but in the end, unless we are at war on this soil, leave the tools best suited for war (rifles/shotguns) at home, and the tools best suited for personal defense (handguns) on your hip in plain view.

  12. The Comedian Says:

    It all comes back to Don’t Scare White People.

  13. Bugei Says:

    Some things I’ve noticed observing events California.
    1) The ONLY progress on gun rights has occurred in the courts.
    2) Progress in the courts only occurs when someone’s civil rights are violated by someone in authority. That’s the only time you have standing to sue.

    On another note, Joe — or more usually, Josephine — Average does get freaked out…by ANY open carry, by ANY exercise of your gun rights. If you allow that fact to cause you not to exercise those rights…you have freely given them up.

    Rosa Parks freaked people out. People were offended. And afraid. Mostly afraid that things were changing, but nonetheless. If 3% of the colonials were fighting the Revolution, a pretty substantial part of the remaining 97% were cursing them for rocking the boat and freaking out the King.

    This is a wedge issue. A severe one. But if I claim to support your First Amendment rights, I support your right to call me a honkie. If I claim to support your Second Amendment rights, I’m going to have to do so while acknowledging that not everything you do with them is going to make me happy. I’m just happier that you have the rights at all and I’ll put up with your nonsense.

  14. Andrew Says:

    A lot of people are saying stuff about under 21 can’t carry a handgun and while technically untrue it is effectively true. In Michigan you can purchase a handgun from a private seller and OC it legally. However, to transport it, you must unload and case it, rendering it null. Without a CPL (21 to get CPL) you can’t carry at any of the following:

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    Section (h) there means anywhere licensed to sell alcohol AT ALL. This means gas stations, grocery stores, party stores, restaurants, big box stores like Target, coffee shops that have liqueur flavoring, festivals with temporary alcohol permits, etc, etc

    (There is some argument about whether or not the entire property or just the building is the PFZ for liquor licensed establishments. Most believe it’s the building itself, but this may require a court case.)

    So, being under 21 makes it nearly impossible to carry a handgun for self defense in Michigan.

  15. Laughingdog Says:

    As a person that open carries exclusively, let me give a little tip to the asshole fringe of those who open carry. You can open carry without being a dick. If you want to open carry a long gun, you plan out a way to do it that is noticeable, without crossing the line into “potential nutjob” territory.

    One tactic is to have one person with a long gun slung over their shoulder, carrying some gun-rights related sign. Others around that person open carry handguns, pass around leaflets to people passing by, and act as the mouth pieces. The person most prone to be the type to rant about his rights to people (i.e., the one least capable of being a saleman) is your best choice for the one to hold the sign, since their job is to stand there, hold the sign, and shut the hell up.

    You don’t sway people to your side by hiding. But you also don’t accomplish anything by being a dick.

  16. REB Says:

    Ahh. If only our shotgun carrying friend had a sign. Then he wouldn’t be ‘a dick’.

    Now I get it.