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Depends on the civilian and the soldier

A former military guy, who is an idiot, writes:

The Texas school shooting reminds America what vets already know: civilian gun culture is a dysfunctional mess

Compared to the weapons training that military and law enforcement personnel undergo, the training required of civilian gun owners is a joke.

Most vets are part of the gun culture, sparky. And, as for police and military, let’s review:

These are the ones I can recall. I’m sure there’s more. Add your favorite in comments.

29 Responses to “Depends on the civilian and the soldier”

  1. Sclearman Says:

    How about “I am the only one trained enough ….”
    https://youtu.be/am-Qdx6vky0

  2. HL Says:

    Training holds no relevance to school shootings. I prefer murderers to have less training.

  3. Divemedic Says:

    https://street-pharmacy.blogspot.com/2017/05/how-what.html

  4. Huck Says:

    “Compared to the weapons training that military and law enforcement personnel undergo, the training required of civilian gun owners is a joke.”

    With the piss poor accuracy, poor judgement, and endless violations of Jeff Cooper’s rules by LEOs in general I’d say that maybe LEOs need to get some training from other “civilians”. (LEOs are civilians too)
    And I can attest that when it comes to Military training, some troops just cant be trained. “You can teach ’em, but you cant learn ’em!”

  5. Ritchie Says:

    Just to pry apart military and law enforcement (different, not same), non-government gun ownership is completely voluntary, and training to be allowed to exercise a right is not always required at all. The offending writer seems to be channelized into an authoritarian mindset.

  6. mike Says:

    “In 1991, I was a military intelligence officer in the U.S. Army Reserve. ”

    Pretty much all you need to know there.

  7. Patrick Says:

    STOP letting cops call you “civilians”. It is theft of honor. It is poison. I got a bunch of LEO friends by way of accidental kids sharing schools and I almost lost a few of them (and maybe 1-2) because they used the word “civilian” to describe non-LEOs. None of them – not a fucking one – ever served in the US armed forces.

    I appreciate the work cops do. They got a tough job. But they cannot be forced into service – into death – by a commander. They cannot be imprisoned or executed by their own government if they fail to follow an order. They start every damn day with a single motto…”stay safe out there”. They openly talk about avoiding danger.

    But even an REMF Army PFC logistics girl is a real combatant compared to LEOs. Her job might be counting ordinance or fucking computer parts, but if the shit hits the fan and her commander says “stand that gate” she will die or go to prison. That is the fucking law. She cannot say, “I was staying safe out there.”

    LEOs have a Supreme Court decision saying they don’t have to risk themselves in the line of duty, because they are civilians. Actual military persons have no such cover. Summary execution for failing to perform is legal (though impractical these days). Even so, if I ever failed to perform in the military it would be considered dishonor – and there are actual legal consequences for it (try to get a gun with a less than honorable discharge).

    But cos consider avoiding danger to be their duty. That asshole in Florida cowered while kids were killed and retired with a massive annual pension.

    Cops using the term “civilians” for non-sworn citizens are using stolen valor. It’s that fucking simple.

    I call them every time, and so should you. Even if it costs us friends.

  8. JiM Says:

    So does anyone share my opinion the author was chair borne ranger (death from the steno pool)

  9. Jeffersonian Says:

    When I was 12-14 yrs. Old my mom was a dispatcher for the local emergency services dept. Someone in the PD convinced her to become a reserve officer. So she did. On qualification day she outscored every officer and Deputy in the force in spite of having never shot a revolver and having not shot a firearm since her days growing up on the family farm. Hah! She was in her early forties. I was so proud of her. Most cops can’t shoot. Most veterans never had to.

  10. Ron W Says:

    Only the People have rights. The government, those who are employed in its service, work under the delegated power of the People. Delegated powers always flow from the greater to the lesser. While on duty as government servants, they are UNDER the People. Rights supersede delegated powers!

  11. Will Says:

    Jeffersonian:

    Learning to shoot as a child seems to hardwire the brain for this talent. My sisters have done something similar, after spending one day at the range while single digit ages. They hadn’t even remembered that dad had trained them.

  12. Firehand Says:

    Considering what son’s told me about people being pushed through qualifications three times until they scored JUST high enough to ‘qualify’, my opinion of most military firearms training/qualification isn’t exactly sterling.

  13. Ron W Says:

    It is said over and over that “assault weapons should not be on the streets”. I agree. “Assault weapons” are select-fire, full-auto, so OUR EMPLOYEES should not have them. ALL local, state and federal LE should only be issued semi-auto and be armed EQUALLY with their superiors, that is, the People according to “the equal protection of the laws” (14th Amendment).

    ` . . . Congress can make no law which will not have its full operation on themselves and their friends, as well as on the great mass of the society.”
    — James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 57.

  14. Lyle Says:

    “The offending writer seems to be channelized into an authoritarian mindset.”

    Absolutely. He is displaying a textbook example of authoritarianism, the very authoritarianism, in fact, that this country was founded so as to prevent, and to keep it down in the gutters where it belongs. That mindset, unless it is suppressed in a person, gives that person only two choices for a life strategy; either he acquires his false authority by being in government or other official position, thus corrupting it, or he becomes a common criminal and is thus exposed to the justice system. So it’s a panicked personality, the instant we begin talking about this stuff; if his false authority is exposed as false, he’s in fear (and rightly so) of being labeled a common criminal. Both of the two roles are predatory. Society, in either case, has no use for him whatsoever until he changes his ways.

  15. RandyGC Says:

    My experience in the .mil (at about the same time as the author of this piece) was that, unless your were Military LEO or infantry/spec ops you received weapons familiarization, not real training.

    The best weapons training I received while I was in the military was on my own time and often my own dime.

  16. Richard Says:

    I have never heard of doing an enema that way. It would really clean you out.

  17. Jay Eimer Says:

    7 years in the navy in the 90’s. I fired 25 rounds through a Colt Ace (.22LR trainer) in boot camp and then “qualified” to wear a 1911 when standing quarterdeck watches when I made E4. That involved 50 rounds at 15 yards, at a circle target with about a 12″ “black” and had to get 35 in it. (I already knew how to shoot, so I dropped ONE in the 9 ring). It was “timed” fire but the rapid fire part was 10 rounds in 2 separate 5 round strings, with 30 seconds for each (reload off the clock).

  18. SPQR Says:

    PRINCIPLE 7 “Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

  19. SPQR Says:

    From Sir Robert Peel’s Principles of Policing

  20. JTC Says:

    @Ritchie and Lyle,

    As for “modern” LEO’s, not just channelized but actively psych-eval’ed for just that mindset.

    In 40 years of heavy exposure to LEO’s of every rank and in every capacity I saw the metamorphosis first-hand…and don’t forget that includes all of these weaponized letter agencies of gov.

    The old guys who considered themselves “peace officers” hate that shit with a passion.

  21. Hartley Says:

    “Military Intelligence Officer in the Army Reserve” – seems a looong way from an actual, you know, SOLDIER.

    But I’m sure he tells everybody he was a Seal/Green Beret killer back then.

  22. Jay Dee Says:

    I always thought that”Military Intelligence” was an oxymoron: typically with more emphasis on the moron part.

  23. Jay Dee Says:

    A few things.

    First to Patrick regarding civilians. You are correct. If you really want to have fun with these types, ask where the U.S. Constitution defines their function.

    To JTC: When I started policing, an old hand took me aside and told me that, “You work with the scum of the earth day in and day out. When you reach the point that you start to believe that everyone is the scum of the earth, it is time to get out.” This is a real problem with today’s professional police departments. You need to get out but you’ve invested a lifetime of education in policing. What do you do that doesn’t involve policing?

    Finally, I think we can all agree that military and police marksmanship training is sadly deficient. It’s often made worse when non-shooters specifies weapons; i.e. NYs 9 pound trigger pull.

  24. Hartley Says:

    I see Tam has weighed in on this particular twit: https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.mx/2018/05/oh-put-sock-in-it-diamond.html

    I’d go +1000 on that, ma’am. I bet he even looked like that GENERAL OFFICER pictured shooting his M9 that Unc put up top.

    In my personal perambulations with Uncle Sam way back when, my units didn’t bother with those silly clearing barrels, tho I noted that the MPs and leg infantry had ’em pretty much everywhere. Also, while they might demand back the ammo they issued you, if you didn’t have a mag or two of live somewhere in your kit, the Team Sergeant would likely refer to you as “unprepared”.

  25. Flight-ER-Doc Says:

    About a year ago my nephew called me up, and said he wanted to learn to shoot (I’m the gunner in our extended family). I said sure, and flew down to Los Angeles on the day specified. We went to a local range, and he tried a couple of firearms, finally choosing a Glock 17.

    So, we spent an hour or two familiarizing him with the G17, and called it a day.

    The next day, we were back at the range, where I had made arrangements to rent a full range for a couple of hours. I showed him a couple of more drills (reloading, mostly) and then ran him through the MARSOC pistol qual course described here: https://www.handgunsandammunition.com/practice-tactics/6597-meu-pistol-qualification.html

    He met the standard.

  26. JTC Says:

    @ Jay Dee,

    “You need to get out but you’ve invested a lifetime of education in policing. What do you do that doesn’t involve policing?”

    In my admittedly anecdotal but fairly extensive experience and observation, the answer is you go into police administration…no actual policing, more often things like applying the psych evals mentioned above to ensure a steady supply of authoritarian clones of your own seriously flawed and dysfunctional self.

  27. Remington 870 Shooter Says:

    ROFL, that photo with a shotgun…

  28. Sigivald Says:

    Compared to the weapons training that military and law enforcement personnel undergo, the training required of civilian gun owners is a joke.

    He’s not … technically wrong.

    In that zero training is required in the free states to “own a gun”.

    Even cop training beats “the training required of civilian gun owners”.

    What cop training doesn’t beat is the competence of average gun enthusiasts.

  29. JTC Says:

    OT, but too good not to mention…

    I commented the other day on Unc’s 10/22 mag fail post that I had recently took PSA up on this offer, and it’s back…

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/200-rounds-federal-5-56mm-nato-55gr-fmj-bt-ammunition-ten-magpul-pmag-30-5-56x45mm-magazines.html?trk_msg=HK0KGU8J7LO4HF6MLKAP8RO7A0&trk_contact=708PRE2AJDSAD5RGN8EI3NDQ4S&trk_sid=7PFBLKLS98II9IOSJKIV4VQ18O&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=http%3a%2f%2fpalmettostatearmory.com%2f200-rounds-federal-5-56mm-nato-55gr-fmj-bt-ammunition-ten-magpul-pmag-30-5-56x45mm-magazines.html&utm_campaign=Daily+Deal+Email&utm_content=5%3a00+Email

    It was free ship last time and now it’s $12 but still, $60 worth of Federal FMJ and ten Pmags at 8 bucks apiece? Buy ’em even if you don’t “need” ’em.