Suit challenging NFA denials for machine guns
Here’s the complaint. The plaintiff was issued an approval by mistake and now he’s suing. And some in the NFA community aren’t too pleased:
How can I donate to fight this ‘NFA lawsuit’
I have too much skin in this game to let some idiots ruin it all. No outcome from this is good for me, or other collectors I know.
Yet we’ve let a bunch of trailer dwelling keyboard commandos put us in fear of even voicing our opinions! It’s like soviet russia!! We have to toe the party line in public and say that we’d like to see our collections value evaporate overnight – some of us with six figures and more of investments – just to be able to buy some new crappy Mac-10s for $500 a piece. If we say what we really think, the mob of yokels crucifies us.
God help us when every tom dick and harry at the range can show up and blast dirt. I worked hard in my medical career to be able to own nice things that not every jackass can have. What if people could walk into the dealership and buy the classic corvette I have for $5000? Is that fair, considering mine cost ten times that? Is that acceptable to even consider allowing as an outcome?!?!
This is unacceptable. First, is there a more private board for true NFA collectors where we can discuss these issues in private? Second, what can we do to fight this? Filing ‘amicus briefs’ from our side, etc?
The circular firing squad takes aim.
ETA: Apparently, a lot of people didn’t get the tongue in cheek nature of this and the linked subguns post, which was complicated by the board deleting it. The post was even said to have been written by Bill Gates. With it gone, you didn’t see that. Sorry about that.
To those who think I wrote that, lolwut?
November 1st, 2014 at 4:09 pm
Filthy peasants! No machine gun for you!
November 1st, 2014 at 4:19 pm
Must suck to have such a shitty website that you have to generate your own shill posts.
November 1st, 2014 at 4:52 pm
That reads like parody, particularly the “rich doctor douchebag” stereotype persona.
November 1st, 2014 at 5:04 pm
TL:DR : “Noooooo! I’ve got mine you filthy peasant!”
I wonder if these fellows are more than a bit sympathetic to MDA/Bloomberg et al.
Also… “God help us when every tom dick and harry at the range can show up and blast dirt.”
Well given any Tom, Dick, or Harry CAN pass the legal hurdles to machine-gun ownership… they just can’t *afford* the price tag… that means you’re against proles owning guns. And are going to fight tooth an nail to keep an artificial price barrier.
November 1st, 2014 at 5:19 pm
Probably parody but there’s some history there for long time subguns readers.
November 1st, 2014 at 5:53 pm
What history? I’ve been reading subguns for years and I do not recall a single instance of an owner of NFA saying that they wanted the existing onerous restrictions to remain- on the contrary, the only thing I’ve ever seen is people who own NFA say just the opposite, that they would gladly take a hit on their transferrables if it meant the end of ’86.
On the other hand, I’ve seen nothing but gratuitous assertions and baseless accusations to the contrary from the self-designated victim class.
The NFA Archives on subguns go back what, a decade or so? Why don’t you post a link to this ‘history’ you reference rather than make it up as you go along?
November 1st, 2014 at 6:07 pm
Crybaby crys
November 1st, 2014 at 6:10 pm
Lurch, Subguns is hardcore anti-movement on this. There are, what, a 100 posts over the past month + on this topic there, and ALL are negative?
So who exactly are these people who would “gladly” take a hit on their transferrables?
November 1st, 2014 at 6:10 pm
Lurch, I worded that poorly. Meaning, the subguns folks were, generally, referencing others who were of that opinion and they were on there. It’s been years and I don’t know that they have archives.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:13 pm
SubgunsSux, I hadn’t noticed that. But, then, I tend to read them on weekends.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:16 pm
SayUncle – thanks for covering it fairly. I don’t know why we in the gun community like to be our own worst enemy sometimes.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:16 pm
second amendment motherfucker
November 1st, 2014 at 6:17 pm
Hmm, if you look in this thread, SubgunsSux may be right.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:30 pm
‘Anti-movement’- does that mean that anyone who dares say anything in opposition to your assertions opposes you for the reasons that you dictate, and that’s that?
Again- I’d like to see a link to any real poster on the subguns NFA board who has stated that they oppose lifting of ’86 because it would affect the value of their NFA items. Because I can’t recall ever reading that. Ever. If you can’t find anything like that then why don’t you just say it, and just say that you feel your assertions are right rather than just make it up as you go along?
November 1st, 2014 at 6:36 pm
They don’t archive the discussion board, to my knowledge. For instance, go here and see that the links are dead, save for the top few posts.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:44 pm
SayUncle, this is beneath you. That post was an obvious troll – did you catch the email address? Bill@microsoft.gov? That’s why it was deleted. You’re just feeding the idiots that think there’s some big conspiracy of elitist machine gun owners who want to kill this lawsuit to protect their portfolios. I think you owe the subguns community an apology, and a retraction at the very least.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:46 pm
So, if I am reading this right, you would prefer see the NFA never re-opened. Denying additional freedom to your fellow countrymen, because you don’t want to loose money on “investment firearms”? Or because you want to have things that nobody else can? Don’t ever call yourself a 2nd amendment supporter, or a freedom lover. You sir, should be ashamed of yourself.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:47 pm
Oh, and they most certainly DO archive the subguns message boards. Click on any of the links on the header of the message boards that have “Archive” in the title.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:48 pm
I caught the gates email (billgates@microsoft.com IIRC) and figured everyone else would too. Didn’t figure subguns would delete it. And they do not archive the discussion board. See?
November 1st, 2014 at 6:53 pm
http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsgarchive.cgi
Set preferences to go back 10 years or so. I’ll wait for links to posts from NFA owners who have posted that they do not want to see repeal of NFA restrictions because it will affect the value of their NFA possessions.
November 1st, 2014 at 6:55 pm
The post was obviously meant to stir the shit, I saw it and was gonna call them out but figured the post would disappear soon anyway? And they absolutely archive the discussion board. Here’s the archive for the nfa board:
http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsgarchive.cgi
The only board that isn’t archived is the moderated discussion board.
November 1st, 2014 at 7:06 pm
I did not know that. Why, then, do the links to posts not work? And, given their tendency to delete posts, I don’t place much faith in it.
Next time I’ll hint more that I’m poking fun.
ETA: I look at the archive here and take the first post. I search for “promag” on this page. Not there. I have no faith in their archives.
November 1st, 2014 at 7:07 pm
Oh, and now they’ve banned me. LOL.
November 1st, 2014 at 7:15 pm
The archives don’t work like you’d expect. It’s not a rolling list of the most recent posts, but if you search for a post that scrolled off the board you’ll find it there.
And FWIW, I don’t think they banned your site because of this. I tried linking to your site ages ago and it stripped your domain out of the url. There’s a bunch of sites on their naughty list. They’ll probably tell you how you got there if you really care.
November 1st, 2014 at 7:25 pm
My guess would be my posts on the Akins accelerator.
November 1st, 2014 at 7:33 pm
Ha! Yeah I could see that.
November 1st, 2014 at 10:02 pm
I can’t see a Solothurn-Steyr or a 1928 Thompson going down in value because M4s are now legal. That’s not how the collector mind works. The ones in the safe will keep their value; and just plain market demand will take care of the shooters.
November 1st, 2014 at 11:43 pm
Anytime there is a restricted or protected marketplace, people will see an opportunity to profit. When they made gambling legal in my state, they tied to the liquor licenses. A license went from a $150k item issued in dribs and drabs by the state, to million dollar items in big cities that had all the liquor licenses that were allowed. When they banned strip clubs, the two already inside the city limits became gold mines for the owners. I feel for the guys that have big chunks of money tied up in the automatic firearms market as an investment. They thought they had a protected market with a huge rate of return and now, maybe not. On the other hand, whenever government regulation creates and artificial demand, you risk a loss at the whim of the government. That’s why I’ve never been interested in bidding on government contracts. I’m just more risk averse than that. Of course, a full auto SCAR would be awesome! Can I borrow your checkbook to buy ammo? 🙂
November 2nd, 2014 at 6:37 am
All this talk like the lawsuit will do anything, is crazy.
ATF cannot undo Federal law, even if it wanted to. Congress passed it and Reagan signed it. Done and done.
So ATF they made a mistake. No big deal. People do that all the time. Errors on the part of ATF in accidentally approving a MG build does not bootstrap the act of making machine guns, into legal a act.
Yeah, we need to fix the ban. But this lawsuit is going to be short lived. The judge is going to be rolling his eyes here, and will politely suggest that the plaintiff and his attorney go watch “Schoolhouse Rock” to see how law is made.
ATF’s job is to execute these laws. They have no statutory authority to modify them. Congress and the “Great Conservative” Ronald Reagan made sure of it.
November 2nd, 2014 at 9:30 am
SayUncle, congratulations on being “That Guy”. The guy who puts his financial interests ahead of the rights of others. Ahead of the constitution. No one gives a crap that you’re a doctor or whatever. The fact is the second amendment says “shall not be infringed”. The NFA is an infringement. Plain and simple. The fact that you’re espousing the gov in this matter, simply because you have “six figures and more of investments” shows that you truly are selfish and are, I dare say, an anti-gun type. The type to vote for Clinton or Feinstein due to their “reasonableness”. Do everyone a favor and stay home on the 4th.
November 2nd, 2014 at 10:22 am
I can pass the checks to own a machine gun, and I live in a State that allows it. What I CAN’T do is afford one. You machine gun owners are the 1% or less of gun owners. It is nice that you are rich and can afford them, but if NFA went away you would still have rare guns and they will not lose that much value. You own pieces of History. The rest of us would be happy to pay a few thousand for a new select fire rifle.
November 2nd, 2014 at 10:49 am
SayUncle, as you can see from the comments, people still believe that this post is authentic. It would be helpful to the gun community as a whole if you’d update the post to point out that it was a shill and it’s not real. We don’t need more division than we already have, much less contrived class warfare among gun owners.
November 2nd, 2014 at 11:00 am
As an afterthought, all that really needs to be done is to repeal the Hughes Amendment to FOPA. Then with the $200 and proper form we could all buy NEW machine guns for a lot less than the war relics.
November 2nd, 2014 at 12:10 pm
FBHO, that was the thread winner comment. Quite hilarious.
Wait … whut? … You were serious?
November 2nd, 2014 at 1:11 pm
LOL @ the folks that think Uncle is the guy who wrote that. Its a quote, people.
November 2nd, 2014 at 2:53 pm
Indeed. Will do.
November 2nd, 2014 at 4:33 pm
Why is it ridiculous to think that you wrote it?
Less than 24 hours ago you reposted it here with the inference that it was a legitimate post from the mythical NFA Fudd. I don’t think it’s beyond the pale for your typical ar15.com reader who believes in the mythical NFA Fudd and that a clerical error will overturn ’86 and that Trusts are legitimate and easy vehicles for NFA, would also have such pisspoor reading comprehension skills to know that you’re a rich fatcat doctor NFA 1%er just out to protect your rich fancypants MG42s while keeping us poor workin’ guys from converting our AR15s.
November 2nd, 2014 at 4:37 pm
Because I linked to the source that did write it. And I own exactly zero machine guns. And I’m not a doctor. My readers know that. You’re new here.
November 4th, 2014 at 3:14 am
I’m a class 2 and have been for 27 years, I would love to see the 1986 law shot down.
November 4th, 2014 at 2:31 pm
Has DU bought the domain name subguns.com or do they run that website now? They delete opposing views from pro-gun posters just like DU deletes posts contrary to their socialist/communist views.
November 4th, 2014 at 2:57 pm
William Hughes sure is popular over on subguns, the guys over there are lining up to jump into bed with him.