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More on the pool lift

So, this throw away post featuring a pool lift I made while getting sunburned err tanned and sipping a Mai Tai generated more attention than I thought it would have. Which is to say, it got some. My initial impression was that it was a waste, government mandated, and it was put in a very inconvenient location at the main entry into the shallow end, where all the kids congregate to play. Some other observations:

  • I saw two kids hurt themselves on it by running or swimming into it.
  • While there, there were two wheel chair bound people. Both went into the pool and neither used the lift. Their family members helped them in.
  • After the comments here went on, I put on my intrepid reporters hat and asked the manager about it. Basically, she said the following:

  • They were told by “the government” to install it or they’d have to shut the pool down. She didn’t specify who in government.
  • It was expensive. She would not give me a number but finally conceded it was five figures.
  • In the months since its installation, it has been used exactly zero times.
  • So, there you have it.

    55 Responses to “More on the pool lift”

    1. Ancient Woodsman Says:

      At some point they will be nicknamed, “TSA lifts”…being an extremely expensive government mandate that no one actually asked for, known to harm children & make adults feel uncomfortable, that doesn’t actually do what it was made to do because those that really need it don’t use it.

    2. CaptainVictory Says:

      Like I was saying …

    3. comatus Says:

      But, but…supply and demand!
      But, mostly, demand.

    4. Jerry Says:


    5. Tam Says:

      Ancient Woodsman,

      I wish to hell I’d thought of that. :)

    6. Alan Says:

      Perfect example of why a command economy can never work.

    7. Andy Says:

      This will tell you who from the gov’t

    8. HL Says:

      It would only be a “TSA” device if it lowered you into the pool by your dork.

    9. John Hardin Says:

      …did you happen to ask the two people in wheelchairs why they did not use the lift?

    10. Patrick Says:

      We have a new county indoor pool complex with three pools and a hot tub. Nice.

      One of the pools is a “Therapy Pool” that says somewhere around 90 degrees and is outfitted with grab-bar lanes underwater, seating and a lift. I use it with my toddler and infant son because even the heated main pool is too cold for a baby.

      Infirm and handicapped people use this pool frequently. I have never seen one use the chair lift and the lifeguards told me it has only been used once or twice by someone who tries it and never uses it again. They much prefer sitting on the edge of the steps and lowering themselves in.

      Every pool is different and I would not speak for handicapped people who might like the chairs, but I will note that of the three pools at the center only this one has the lift. The main pool (a competition pool) will need one under these rules, as will the Toddler-Pool that averages 1.5 ft deep and has five small slides for the toddlers.

      I have handicapped people in my close family, so am not cold to the issue. But I just don’t see the one-size approach working here.

      FWIW, the government is not going to fine pools that don’t put in the slides. The effect is much worse: the law allows lawyers to sue pools that do not have lifts put in place. Lawyers will partner with a handicapped client to go to a pool and then sue for ADA non-compliance. That makes it worse than the government. Go check who is pushing for the regulation: trial lawyers.

    11. Dann in Ohio Says:

      What a waste… they could have used those funds to buy another armored tactical vehicle for the Mayberry PD…

      Dann in Ohio

    12. nk Says:

      •I saw two kids hurt themselves on it by running or swimming into it.
      My tall, strong, tough girl (9 then), went surfing at Waikiki, with mama’s heart in mama’s mouth. She was fine. Then she decided to do a somersault at the shallow end of the hotel’s pool. Three staples in her skull, wheelchair, neckbrace for two months. Kids. My father said she was going to avenge him, for what I put him through.

      •While there, there were two wheel chair bound people. Both went into the pool and neither used the lift. Their family members helped them in.

      Of course. Family support is the most important thing in any disability. My brothers and I took care of our disabled parents for twelve years. Two full-time women (caregivers), too. But there is a sense of pride and independence?

    13. Steve Says:

      I work at an architecture firm “Pool Access” is a requirement by ADA. I think you do not have to have a life but another means of entrance is acceptable like a slope into the pool. Once the pool is larger than a certain size it has to have two means of entry. The ADA is a huge driving force in the design factors of Architecture.

    14. HL Says:

      But there is a sense of pride and independence?

      It isn’t government’s job to ensure anyone’s pride, Obama.

    15. nk Says:

      Ain’t nobody’s job to do anything.

      Wanna build your own Glock? Form your own cases? Make your own primers? Formulate your own powder? Test it? Melt lead? Cover it with the exact annealed copper/zink>?

      Do want you want, but please do not drive on the highway my tax dollars paid for.

    16. Tango Says:

      nk, if you want the lifts, convince hotels to install them or provide something that’s inexpensive.

      As you said in the other thread, a month of parking fees would EASILY pay for it… How many $10k items does a Hotel have that need to be paid for? Do they all just take a month of parking fees to pay for it?

      Why should the pool owner be FORCED to pay at gunpoint to cater to a specific subset of the population?

      If you are physically unable to perform a specific task… THEN DON’T PERFORM IT! What’s next? Accessible poles for disabled wannabe erotic dancers? How about mandetory prosthetics paid for by orchestras so the one-armed bandits across the country can play the violin if they want to?

    17. Tango Says:

      nk, bad analogy. Tax dollars are not paying for these lifts. They’re being taken from the owners at gunpoint.

    18. nk Says:

      We are a community. Who will you throw away, first? Me? Or my nephew, who died of hipbone cancer at age fourteen?

      Pools will close. Tough cookies. If they cannot find a way to be in business, let them go out of business.

      There is government, and there is bad weather.

      If you don’t like government, do your own tornado warning. While you’re looming your underwear.

      I cannot believe that intelligent people adopted the philosophy of an alcoholic, addicted, skinny, ugly, adultress.

    19. nk Says:

      If we meet, in the 7/11, and smile, and say “Good Morning”? This is all it is, guys. Live with me, I might gift you a cigarette when you have just run out.

      That Ayn Rand nonsense. Honeys, you need us, but we do not need you.

    20. Jim Says:

      Guess that whole Freedom thing really sucks, doesn’t it nk.

      I don’t mind freely giving my money to worthy causes. I frequestly do. I do mind having the government forcing me to give. I tend to dig in my heels at any opportunity. Forcing pools to have these lifts will cause them to have to charge more (one way or another). Yes, I have a problem with this. But, since I am free (relatively speaking, of course, as we are no where near as free a people as we once were), I can choose to frequent places like hotels that went ahead and closed their pools rather than knuckle under to the government. You are free to do whatever you choose to do, and more power to you.

    21. Tam Says:

      We are a community.

      The hell we are.

      I am an individual. You are an individual.

      We may voluntarily cooperate on some things, but there’s a special word used for forcing people to do things involuntarily. We even had a little war about it here in the US once.

    22. John Farrier Says:

      Live with me, I might gift you a cigarette when you have just run out.

      No, thanks. I’ll just use the force of government to compel you to hand over a cigarette when I need one.

    23. alan Says:

      The government considers individuals to be terrorists.

    24. Tam Says:

      I cannot believe that intelligent people adopted the philosophy of an alcoholic, addicted, skinny, ugly, adultress.

      Ah, ad hominem! That strongest of arguments.

      Tell me, nk, do you have a “philosophy” that you adopted from somebody else as a package? ‘Cause that’s freaky.

      Normal people agree with some people on somethings and disagree with them on others and tend to assemble their own philosophies as they go through life. We do this because we are individuals, not some hive mind all tuned to the same frequency.

      Smile at me and say “Good morning” when we meet in the 7/11 and don’t try and take my shit by force and I might gift you a cigarette and not shoot your ass.

    25. nk Says:


      I do not put my hands on people, or their property. And I do not allow them to do that to me, either. And I have taught that to my girl, and she’s learned it, too.

      I think we’re talking about a non-Hobbesian world? Where life is not ugly and short?

    26. nk Says:

      Do you know what ad hominem means, BTW? The clearest, “The relative strengths or weaknesess of the speaker are not necessarily a reflection on his message”. Ayn Rand’s “message” was something you find in pig pens. The message may be a reflection on the speaker?

    27. tkdkerry Says:

      “I do not put my hands on people, or their property.”

      And yet, nk, if you support the gov forcing such things as lifts at pools, you do indeed put your hands on my property. You’ve merely outsourced the job.

    28. Sid Says:


      No one on this thread or the other thread has said anything about throwing you away. We are not rolling individuals in wheelchairs into an oven.

      What we (if I may speak for others on this thread) are saying is that the government should not be allowed to force private companies or property owners to purchase chair-lifts. If a property owner voluntarily purchases a chair-lift, that is perfectly okay and comdemnable. Put no one should be forced to buy and install a chair-lift.

      Do you understand this? From your continued comments, it does not seem to register with you.

    29. HL Says:

      I do not put my hands on people, or their property

      You are having government do it for you.

      You are asking Government to force private individuals (the hotel owners) to install equipment (the lift) in their private property (their pool) to satisfy the wants (desire to get in the pool with no help from others–except Gov’t) for another private individual (you).

    30. nk Says:

      Please, I can pay.

    31. HL Says:

      I think Sid means “commendable”, not the other thing.

    32. Jim Says:

      “Please, I can pay.”

      Excellent. Glad to hear it. Now quit trying to justify the use of force to make ME pay.

    33. Tango Says:

      nk, No you don’t put your hands on people or their property. You get the government to do it for you.

    34. Tango Says:

      Wow, there’s a can of worms. Someone is trying to teach Tam proper command of the English language. This will end well!


      Ever see a title bout between Alfalfa and Muhammad Ali? No?

    35. Dwarven1 Says:

      nk, if you can pay, then why are you so darned happy to see pools CLOSED because they won’t knuckle under to the gov’t edict (or because they just don’t have the MONEY to pay for that $4K to $10K upgrade because you DIDN’T pay).

    36. Seerak Says:


      I do not put my hands on people, or their property.

      Yes you do. You simply lack the honesty to do it yourself. Instead, you take up the cat’s paw the Left bequested you in the form of the theft state, and use it to extract what you want while hiding behind the moral mask the Left gave you for the purpose (“we’re a community”).

      And you have the outright GALL to whine about a “Sense of pride and independence” after confessing to morally sanctioning theft? As if there were some sort of shame in accepting ***voluntary*** assistance, but none in having some hired goons do some stealing for you?

      What a twisted morality that is. And you call Ayn Rand’s ideas the sort of thing found in pig pens.

      I’ll tell you this right now: As I said in the thread on the Marine who stood by the door of the sick 12-year old who passed away, I have no problem supporting that IF I WERE ASKED. When someone asks me for help, instead of demanding it or stealing it via government, they are recognizing my moral sovereignty, my right to decide the issue for myself, including saying no. That concept is precisely Ayn Rand’s idea that irks you so.

      I have no problem helping that person out. If I’m at the pool, I’ll gladly pitch in to help them get in and out of it.

      But you, sir, with your entitlement mentality, I’ll happily leave sitting there, high and dry. On principle. Every time, until the day you no longer see me and others as a means to your ends.

    37. Linoge Says:

      Pools will close. Tough cookies.

      Well, at least you are willing to admit you do not want equality, you want superiority, in the sense that if everyone does not cater to your specific desires and wants, at the government’s gunpoint, then they can just go to hell and take whatever the hell else with them.

      People like you quite literally disgust me, and not just because you are a hair-brained imbecile you cannot tell the difference between a “corporation”, a “community”, and a “government”, nor can apparently comprehend the proper uses and applications of the same. No, you disgust me because you are all too sickly eager to demand that the government force private entities to do what you believe is “right”. Fuck that noise. What if I believe that the government should force all pools to build massive dividers down the center and split them into “male” and “female” sections so as to not offend the delicate sensibilities of our Muslim brethren? After all, we are a “community”, right?

      No, I do not need you, and I sure as hell do not want people like you, especially since people like you are the primary reason I keep reminding people that “the government” is not America’s problem.

      (And, for the record, I would have absolutely no problem with a private organization coming together to lobby pools to install lifts like these, or, better yet, collect money to help those pools install them, since they are decidedly not cheap and used by a marked minority. By objection stems solely from the use of government force in this situation, and the gleeful use of the same at that. If there actually was a market, the pools would have already installed lifts like these – the lack indicates there is not.)

    38. Jerry Says:

      Like I said, stimulating.

    39. nk Says:

      Good thread. Usually, we’re too polite. Grits is nice, but sometimes a little hamhocks is welcome?

      Guys, what did I start ****ing saying? Five thousand pools installed lifts in the last five years? No law required them to do so. They did it as a business decision?

    40. Sendarius Says:

      I have an idea.

      Let’s install a money slot actuator on the mandatory pool access lift – say $5 per use, then mandate (with the force of government behind it)that all disabled pool users use the lift. It’s for their own safety after all.

    41. nk Says:


      That’s the pool’s business. Wanna buy a part of it? You can raise the fees and I may go to another pool, based on the price and ease of drive.

      Whadda? Where’s the mandatory?

      Pool’s too hard to handle, don’t run a pool. Anybody here run his/her business instead of just getting a paycheck?

    42. John Farrier Says:

      nk, please clarify. Are you opposed to government regulations that make pool lifts mandatory?

    43. JFP Says:

      “We are a community. Who will you throw away, first?”

      Oh puhlease, there are plenty of groups of people who are tossed out and treated like garbage in our society, community my backside. I learned that in effing high school. I have to help pay for all kinds of feel good crap and then told I have white male priviledge so stop complaining and to pay up some more. The octo-mom needs more food stamps.

    44. Sendarius Says:


      Yes, I DO run my own business, as a matter of fact.
      My largest single cost after salaries is government regulatory compliance.

      Every time a new regulation is introduced requiring me to do X or Y or Z, I take home less money – I can’t cut salaries, and I can’t continually increase prices and stay in business.

      I have no employess with disabilities (the business I am in kind of precludes it), yet I have to provide disabled access to my building – at MY expense.

      I don’t deal in noxious wastes, but because the office is in an industrial area, I have to install waste traps, and develop and maintain an EPA approved management plan for stuff that I don’t store, don’t use, don’t work with, and don’t sell – at MY expense.

      I have to comply with EEO regulations, and maintain documentation that proves that I did in every hiring, even though no woman has ever applied for a job with my company – at MY expense.

      Those expenses all come from MY income. Most years I make less than my senior people; sometimes a LOT less.

      The only good thing is that I don’t have a pool.

    45. nk Says:

      We have been talking past each other, to a large extent, I think. Before I became lame, I managed a seventeen unit apartment building. ADA obligates the landlord to allow, but the tenant to pay, for handicapped access. It also says that the tenant is responsible for restoring it to the initial condition.

      First off, I paid for the grab bars. If I liked the tenant, and wanted him/her there, I would accomodate him. It cost less than half a month’s rent. And I have never held back a security deposit. Maybe the next tenant would like them, if I liked him.

      This is business. You live around St. Louis, you deal with the Missouri overfilling the Mississippi. In America, you deal with some laws. You can move. No law requires handicap access to your cave in Idaho.

      Alright, please illustrate Ayn Rand to me. In a world without law. And I don’t mean “Atlas Shrugged”. Real life. (That piece of garbage was gathering dust, on my newstand, in 1977.)

    46. nk Says:

      John Farrier,

      nk, please clarify. Are you opposed to government regulations that make pool lifts mandatory?

      I suppose I’m just saying, “Let’s not get our panties in a wad”.

      But I do like this catfight. Thank you, Uncle.

    47. Tango Says:

      That’s not answering the question.

    48. Montieth Says:

      Hey everyone, NK feels like we’re a community. Lets all show up at 2am for beer, cookies and steak. NK is providing.

      He’s community oriented after all….I’m sure he won’t mind.

    49. nk Says:

      You gonna build that road, you gonna find me on?

    50. nk Says:

      You gonna build the car you drive? You gonna raise the cow? Grow the wheat for the cookies? Go to Louisiana for the sugar, Niger for the chocolate? I’ll wait for you.

    51. HL Says:

      Guys, what did I start ****ing saying? Five thousand pools installed lifts in the last five years? No law required them to do so.

      If this is true, there is no need for the law.

      They did it as a business decision?

      It’s statements (questions?) like this that are causing us to “talk past one another.” Are you asking us if they did it as a business decision (because you used a question mark), or are you stating that they did it for that reason? Question marks only come after questions.

    52. HL Says:

      You gonna build the car you drive? You gonna raise the cow? Grow the wheat for the cookies? Go to Louisiana for the sugar, Niger for the chocolate? I’ll wait for you.

      What the fuck does this even mean?

      Are you trying to rehash the Elizabeth Warren sentiment regarding wealth?

      “You built a factory out there? Good for you,” she says. “But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.” –Elizabeth Warren

      I will take Ayn Rand over her “Cherokee” ass any day.

    53. Jake Says:

      Five thousand pools installed lifts in the last five years? No law required them to do so. They did it as a business decision?

      As HL said, “If this is true, there is no need for the law.” And if it is true, then what’s wrong with just letting the business owners who don’t install the lifts lose out on all the money you claim they would make by installing them?

      Why do you need the FedGov to force pool owners to install these lifts, if having them is so good for business?

    54. nk Says:

      Anticipatory fear. The law regulation is not in effect. No pool lift has yet been installed because .gov got a judgment. “Waah, mama, the big, bad government is trying to blow our pool down!”

    55. JFP Says:

      This reminds me of the seatbelt law arguments. In 10-20 years you’ll be required to put on a belt to engage the chair to lower you into the pool. The machine will beep at you until you do so once the motor is turned on.

      Click it or ticket!

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