Caliber Choice
Been pondering a new handgun. More specifically, after shooting Larry from Brownell’s STI, I want an STI real bad. And I want one for both carry and for if I ever do competition. So, of course, that leads to choices regarding caliber. Having always been a 45ACP guy, I have a few guns in that caliber. I was thinking of something different and leaning toward .40S&W since it seems to be the standard for competition. Then, I read Marko’s post on .40 S&W disadvantages:
it’s 50% more expensive than 9mm for a 10% performance increase.
Yet, that 10% is apparently enough to make a difference in classes at competitions. For just a 10% increase in performance, I’m leaning toward the 21 round 9mm, quite frankly. What say you?
September 16th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Depends on what game you want to shoot. .40 makes major which has a scoring advantage in USPSA (IPSC). Never shot IDPA so not sure there. For example, if an A zone hit is 5; a B/C zone hit might be 4 with a .40 and only 3 with a 9mm. No problem if you just shoot all “A”s, right? International rules 3-gun requires two hits to neutralize, anywhere on the target, so 9mm isnt’ a disadvantage. First STI I shot was a .40 and I really liked it. Then I shot a 9mm STI and fell in love (lust?). Which is why I ended up with mine.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Be aware that the .40 can be problematic in 1911s due to the shorter OAL.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:53 am
I look at it this way.
If your not a top shooter, the economics rule the roost, stay with the affordable ammo.
If you are a top shooter, then who cares about the cost of ammo, cause someone else is footing the bill.
All those little edges and %’s here and there, my experience is only the top shooters are concerned with them.
Your mileage may vary…..
September 16th, 2009 at 9:56 am
I’m not sure what the “10% performance increase” is referring to. 40 S&W has around a 50% increase in momentum, 25% increase in energy, and a 25% increase in frontal area.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Short calibers in 1911s require spacers in the mags. This makes me sad.
1911s are properly chambered in longer calibers, like .38 Super, 10mm Auto, and .45ACP.
The fact that anybody who has studied terminal ballistics realizes that it works maybe 10% better, if that. With good bullets, the differences between 9, .40, and .45 aren’t even worth talking about unless you’re a n00b on ARfcom or GlockTalk.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Go with the 9mm. You can shoot USPSA Limited Minor. You can shoot IDPA ESP most likely. You’ll spend less on ammo whether you buy or reload. The gun will be strong enough to shoot really hot 9mm (USPSA Major loads) if you want. (It won’t help your scoring but a 125 gr JHP at 1340 FPS with 20+ in the gun is a nice thing.)
You can always build another top end in 40 S&W if you want.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Larry’s right – the factor in caliber selection depends entirely on what you’re going to be shooting with the gun. This is why your Certified Practical Shooting Accountant is here.
If you’re going to get a double stack gun from STI, and if you’re going to shoot it in competition, then get a .40 – it allows you to hold more bbs in the gun, and makes major PF so you get the scoring bonuses. If you’re going to get a single stack gun, get a 9mm or a .38 Super. Single Stack division is the only division where guns shooting minor can be competitive, because they get an ammo boost over the Major PF guns.
You can shoot a minor PF gun in Limited, but you’ll take a scoring hit as Larry explained for C/B hits.
Of course, all of that’s only relevant for USPSA – if you’re going to shoot IDPA with it, get a .45 or a 9mm/.38 Super. The .40 is basically useless for IDPA in terms of gaming, because the only division that requires a Major PF is CDP, which is .45 ACP only.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:33 am
And here I got a 40 because I thought it was better.
I’ll just have to stick to the wheel gun, I guess.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Sorry, Tam, I thought we were using the mathematical “10%”, as a measure of physical properties, not the other, non-mathematical kind that I’m too much of a noob to know about.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:57 am
See, all the stuff you’re talking about though doesn’t really affect terminal ballistics that much. In modern JHP service ammo, the .40 S&W has maybe a 10% improvement in ballistic performance over the 9mm; and even that number is iffy. It’s a great gun for gun games, but for shooting fools it’s not a significant ballistic improvement over a 9mm.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:08 am
If you are comparing on the basis of a self-defense round my advice is here.
If you are comparing on the basis of USPSA matches consider:
1) C hits count as 3 v. 4 points for 9mm v. .40.
2) D hits count as 1 v. 2 points for 9mm v. .40.
3) Nearly everyone that pays attention to the score shoots .40 unless they are shooting in the Revolver, Production or Single Stack Divisions. There is a reason for this. That reason is that the additional capacity is seldom used and the loss of points cannot be made up for in increased speed. It’s almost always better to go fast enough to get an occasional B,C, or D hit and than to go slow enough to get all As.
If you are shooting Steel Challenge matches the capacity is irrelevant (unless you miss WAY too much to be competitive anyway) but recoil is a bit of a concern so 9mm is best. Or if you have a .40 you can download it to get 9mm level recoil.
I have no comments on IDPA so I suggest you listen to Caleb on that.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Yes, the terminal performance of 9mm vs. .40 is pretty close. However, the jump from Minor to Major in USPSA competition is big. When I first tried the game, I shot a USP 9mm in Limited, and frequently dreamed of being able to make Major.
The 9mm does great things in many competitions that don’t have strict Power Factors, but unless you’re shooting Open with an STI, it’s not going to be the best for USPSA.
On the other hand, you can handload light .40 loads. Also, a lot of people who run .40s through 1911s load the ammunition to a longer OAL to optimize functioning. If you’re already going to handload the round, you can make some light-kicking loads for when you don’t have to make a high Power Factor, and heavier loads for when you want to make Major in USPSA.
Here’s some links to light .40 loads:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/40lite_091806/
http://gunnuts.net/2008/12/29/the-joy-of-a-light-40/
September 16th, 2009 at 11:26 am
10mm because it’s fucking awesome!
Otherwise what the smart people said!
September 16th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Yeah, for USPSA for Limited/Limited-10, .40 S&W is the way to go.
For IDPA, the divisions break down in such a way that if you’re shooting a 1911 style gun, your best bet is either a .45 for Custom Defensive Pistol, or a 9mm/.38 Super for Enhanced Service Pistol. .40 doesn’t really have a competitive advantage in IDPA unlike USPSA.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:42 am
From the visit to Blackwater, I got the 9mm, and been loving it!, just found a Tac 5 Para, looking forward to it.
Don’t get me wrong love my 45’s too, but my credit card likes the 9mm better
September 16th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Go with what you shoot best.
Personally I dislike the recoil characteristics of .40. My follow up shots are always slower and the spread on double taps is wider. Therefore I do not shoot .40 but YMMV…
September 16th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
None of that stuff you mentioned has damn-all to do with “performance”, which is solely measured in a unit we’ll call “Dead Bad Guys”.
Yeah, I used to get all spun up over it, too, back when I thought things like foot-pounds and “OSS factors” meant either doodly or squat. I was a tireless evangelist for .40 S&W on GlockTalk over my 56k modem.
The fact of the matter is that the only thing that is proven to work is a hole through something vital and, given the realities of modern projectiles, there’s just not enough difference between any of the major self-defense calibers to get worked up over. If you truly believe that your choice of a .40 over a 9×19, or a .45 over a .40 is somehow going to make up for a bad shot, you’re welcome to that belief, but it isn’t borne out by the facts.
Pick the one that gives you the warm fuzzies and train, train, train, train, train, train, train, train, train.
September 16th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Actually, Caleb, those are the factors that govern terminal performance.
Bullets obey The Law of Conservation of Energy and The Law of Conservation of Momentum. The terminal effects trade-off of energy versus momentum is different in different media, and at different velocities. A 115 grain 9mm pellet does not behave the same as a 230 grain .45 when impacting bone, for example. Momentum matters.
Frontal bullet geometry is the other primary physical factor, and is not affected by caliber, as geometry scales. The primary non-physical factor — shot placement — is not affected by caliber, unless recoil governs your accuracy. You should only shoot a caliber that you can control.
Eliminating non-caliber affects leaves us with energy, momentum, and frontal area. But hey, what do I know? Hunting elk with a .45 is probably no real measure of terminal performance. I should just shoot paper and admit that there’s no difference.
September 16th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
I go with cheap ammo every time.
September 16th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Tam,
Thanks, but I’ll pay extra for that 10% improvement in “Dead Bad Guys”, particularly as it has a reflexive 10% improvement in my survival.
September 16th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
As far as IPSC shooting goes, I’ve noticed that the reloading strategy on any stage that is revolver-friendly is pretty similar for Production, Single Stack or Limited 10.
Unless you screw up a target in the COF in a new and exciting way, (and yes, I am looking at you, Texas Star on Stage 3 last night), figure on 6-8 (-ish) rounds downrange, then reload, rinse, repeat.
The biggest difference from a gaming/strategery aspect that I can see is that the Limited and Open Division shooters can run thru some (if not most) stages with just 1 reload (if that).
September 16th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I wonder how Hypnagogue feels when everything he wrote to me was completely thrown in the trash by Tam in the post immediately proceeding his.
The bottom line that you seem to not be getting sparky is that in a handgun, all those neato-torpedo little numbers mean very little in terms of terminal ballistic performance. When you get up to rifle calibers that’s a different thing, but handguns quite simply don’t generate enough energy for it to really matter.
To make it even easier to understand, look at it this way. Modern hollow point bullets are designed to meet or exceed the “FBI Protocols”. The FBI Protocols are what a bunch of really smart guys who studied a lot of dead guys determined to be the minimum terminal ballistics that a given service cartridge (9mm, .40, .357 Sig, .45 ACP, and .45 GAP to name a few) must have to be considered acceptable. What that translates to is that regardless of caliber, all modern hollow point bullets are going to perform within the same terminal performance envelope. If you want to shoot a .40, or a .45, or a 9mm, or a .357 SIG that’s great, but don’t pretend that it’s going to turn the badguys into a magical shower of sparks any more effectively than a 9mm.
September 16th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Tam,
My personal line of thinking is the best way to reach the goal of “Dead Bad Guys” is more practice… for which I like cheap ammo.
September 16th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Doh, not Tam. Hypnagogue.
dyslexia strikes again.
Sorry Tam.
September 16th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
I don’t care if Brownell’s loaned you a gun, shame on you for shooting Larry!
I just traded a .357 Sig piece on another 9mm while the ammo was drying up. Logistically, 9mm is everywhere, and barely more expensive than before. I think it’ll be cheapest for a long time, with bullet weight and metal commodity prices. I have cheap range access via an FOP, and buy 9mm at case prices, so I have fewer excuses to not practice at least monthly. Because, what makes perfect, everybody? All together now…
September 16th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
I’m re-reading Tam’s “rebuttal” to find what you are talking about. Nope, still nothing there. Hmm. Must be a case of the snark vapors.
I’ve got an idea, how about you hunt go hunt elk with a 9mm, and make up for the terrible terminal performance with the mantra “train, train, train”. That’ll prove me wrong. It’ll also get you a fine for inhumane and illegal method of take.
It never occurs to gamers that some of us actually get our snouts full of terminal performance on a regular basis, picking through carcasses, after hunting with *gasp* pistol cartridges. But apparently the magic momentum bugaboo only works on game animals, not bad guys. Go figure.
I bow to the superior wisdom of your copious experience.
September 16th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
My time is mostly spent urban. I promise to use enough gun for elk, should the day come.
Damnit, now I’m stuck with a mental image of Sean Connery in The Untouchables standing over a dead elk-”Just like a Canadian to bring antlers to a gunfight! You pull a horn, we pull a .300 mag-that’s the Chicago way.”
September 16th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Hypnagogue if you think you are hunting elk with a .40, YOU are the one sucking snark vapors.
September 16th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
When considering the “Dead Bad Guy Count”, I recall something one of my cousins told me.
He worked in the Narcotics division of Houston Police Department for well over 15 years, and was featured on “Cops” more than a handful of times.
Anywho, he was one of the few remaining HPD guys to carry the 1911. I commented about it and asked why one day a number of years ago, and this is what he told me.
“I see and read alot about the 9mm round and it’s effectiveness. A lot of people argue for it, and a lot of people argue against it. However, I let the streets do the talking and make the case for me. I’ve seen too many gangbangers and drug dealers roll into Ben Taub full of 9mm rounds from being shot up by beat cops, and live to see their trial. Not for me. If I have to shoot someone, I want them dead, not full of holes in the ER. That is why I carry and put my trust in the .45.”
September 16th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Steve,
I already said I use a .45, and it’s not .45 ACP. You need a bit more than that for elk — they are bigger than bad guys, remember. A lot bigger. But their tough hide and heavy bone definitely will show you the difference between energy and momentum. Excellent source of practical knowledge, once we get over the “I’m a sooper smartie blogger, look at me talk” and decide to go into the world and actually learn something.
Oh, and it ain’t snark vapors up in the lodgepole here above 10k; it’s not much of anything. If you want to make fun, call it hypoxia.
September 16th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
9mm is a safe bet for use in competition. It is a probably the best caliber to use in IDPA (ESP for that STI. You can shoot Limited Minor, but it is a waste of time to do so in USPSA. .40 S&W is a major pain in the ass unless you are loading your own ammo, and are shooting a pistol that can reduce that horrendous muzzle flip. The real issue is what do you plan on shooting (IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge), and how much money are you looking to spend on it. If you are leaning more towards shooting mostly IDPA, go with 9mm, if you are thinking of doing USPSA with the STI; I would recommend something in a major caliber (Preferably .40 S&W or .45 ACP). I hope this helps.
September 16th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
I think the reason we are *still* debating handgun calibers at all is that people say things like “10% performance increase” without defining what the criteria are for measuring and testing “performance.” The best available data that I have seen is that IF there is a difference in real world performance it is too small to measure or care about.
September 16th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
John, that’s because 73% of statistics are made up on the spot
September 16th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Hypanaghgoghg or whatever – you’re talking past the discussion here. We’re not talking about rifle rounds. In rifle rounds, sectional density and all those other good factors are important. Of course, even then you’re going about it poorly, because by your logic if I can kill an elk with a .30 caliber bullet then I should carry a .32 ACP.
When John Fogh rolls in and says “it really doesn’t matter in pistols”, you’ve pretty much lost the conversation at that junction. Carry whatever you want, but don’t fool yourself into thinking that your .45 GAP is a magic death ray because it says “.45″.
September 16th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Caleb,
I’ve noticed a pattern with you — in order to “win” an argument, you ignore everything I say, then make up a bizarro-land strawman position to knock down.
Over and over and over I’ve said it, and I’ll repeat: energy and momentum. Your creative re-imagining of my statements (re: “because by your logic… I should carry a .32 ACP”) shows that you do not understand the words “energy” or “momentum”. Dear child, energy and momentum are functions of mass and velocity, not diameter.
Shall I use smaller words?
September 16th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
.40 if you plan to compete in USPSA/IPSC. If you compete, the .40’s overall length (OAL)problem in 1911 mags will likely be solved by your new hobby of reloading your competition and practice ammo to the OAL and power factor you desire.
September 16th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Let the ballistics speak for themselves.
And especially telling is this image comparing the penetration and wound cavity of 9mm, .40, .357 Sig and .45 JHP loads.
September 16th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
I’m nowhere near the place some of you folks are at. I’m just a guy that owns a few guns. The $$$ factor is why I have a 9mm pistol and pistol caliber carbine.
September 16th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Far be it from me to take away an excuse for anyone to buy another gun, but …
I’ve bought guns with the excuse that they might be good for some gun game. Then with kids and work and an elderly mother to care for said gun games haven’t been forthcoming. I’d start playing the game first, then buy the bat.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
.45 … because Jeff Cooper would have wanted it that way.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Thanks to ExurbanKevin for introducing actually data… a limited set, but data.
An important factor to remember is that correctly designed hollow-points are designed to penetrate 12-14 inches, so the wound depths shown are similar as a requirement of bullet design, not energy or momentum. Instead, temporary cavity formation is an indicator of energy. (a 22LR, or even Caleb’s .32 ACP will penetrate 18+ inches, but wont do much damage.)
I would add that the Fackler Hypothesis (i.e. “The only thing that matters is permanent wound cavity”) is not anything like settled science, and is in fact counter-indicated by the latest research.
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0701268
September 16th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
As far as cheap ammo goes, sometimes it’s expensiver.
September 16th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
So when Tam links to that image, it’s ignored, but when Kevin links to it, it’s evidence?
And I haven’t ignored everything you’ve said, you just haven’t said anything yet that is applicable to the situation, and the best part is that now you’re actually repeating what I’ve already said but somehow trying to use it to prove your point. You’re my new favorite toy.
Seriously though, if all modern hollow point bullets are designed to penetrate 12-14 inches after defeating common barrier materials and exhibit reliable expansion, then anything beyond that is well, ballistic masturbation. There’s no actual data, real hard data that proves that 9mm < .40 < .45 in terms of pistol stopping power.
Of course, it’s obvious that you’re not going to believe me, or Tam, or John, or a whole mess of people, and that’s okay because ultimately it’s better that you be shooting than not. But like I’ve said several times now, thinking that the .40 is somehow a better magical fight stopper than the 9mm is foolish.
Hey, if I say a bad word, are you going to get all butthurt and run away crying like you did last time?
September 16th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Only if you assume the Fackler Hypothesis. Feel free to come up with evidence.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
BTW, feel free to insult me and curse all you like. It just proves the Hypnagogue Hypothesis: “Caleb is an overgrown child.”
Please read the link I provided, and please reference the US Border Patrol ballistics criteria, which technically supercedes the FBI test protocol, and includes temporary wound cavity as a highly weighted measure of effectiveness.
Then bring your best game. Otherwise start cussing like a infant and declare failure.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Data that Tam led the discussion with, data that utterly contradicted your point, and yet still you soldier on.
Shine on, you crazy dreamer.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
ExUrbanKevin,
If you focus on penetration depth as the sole measure of effectiveness, then you’ve got a point — but that’s not fact, and any experienced hunter will tell you that. There are incapacitating effects of the temporary cavity even at pistol velocities.
Look at your picture — there is a significant difference in temporary cavity for the higher momentum rounds. Look at both dimensions of the temporary cavity. Notice how the .357 Sig has a quick rise of the temporary cavity (high energy, or force over distance), where the 45 acp has a large cavity but it’s longer (momentum, force over time). Again, momentum and energy govern terminal ballistics. The bullets are designed to penetrate the same distance, holding penetration distance constant shows where the differences energy and momentum are relevant: the formation of and the shape of the temporary cavity.
You can make a .22 penetrate 12 inches, but it won’t do any temporary cavity damage.
You might want to expand your research of terminal ballistics beyond Fackler and ArfCom. There’s a world of knowledge that you’ve all failed to discover — like all of the ballistics research since the FBI study.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
“Caleb is an overgrown child” – technically, I’m an underdeveloped teenager. I’m kind of short. I mean, if you’re going to insult me, at least go with the good old standbys.
I’m not entirely sure what it was I did to make you so butthurt, but man oh man your reactions have been truly epic.
Anyway, just to address one point: the Border Patrol’s ballistic standards that you so haughtily cite have led the BP to select a .40 S&W 135 gr JHP which was designed to duplicate the terminal performance of a 124gr 9mm+P.
So please, tell me about the Border Patrol ballistic criteria leading them to select a big heavy round.
You are my favorite, Hypnangagoge, don’t ever change.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
The Border Patrol concluded that the FBI criterion of penetration depth was secondary to temporary cavity effects in real terminal performance, upsetting 20 years of “expert wisdom”. Penetration of 135 grain 40 S&W has always been mediocre (7-10 inches), yet somehow it’s suddenly good enough. It’s starting to look like Evan Marshall was right. Weird.
I’d never make fun of your height, Caleb. That would be foolish, as I’ve seen your El Presidente. If you shoot me 12 times with that 9mm, you just might hit a vital organ once or twice. And make eensy weensy holes.
September 17th, 2009 at 1:46 am
Regarding wound ballistics, it seems like much of what was considered cutting edge 15 or 20 years ago is now regarded as nonsense. Most likely, much of what is taken for received wisdom today will be considered ignorant superstition in another 15 or 20 years.
Eggs used to be bad for me, now they’re good for me…in another year or two, they’ll be bad for me again.
You guys might as well be arguing about who is cooler, Kirk or Picard. (The answer is Kirk)
September 17th, 2009 at 7:30 am
@ Steve – Heh, and like hell, Picard was way cooler.
I’m just here for the lulz – now that he’s gone completely 180 degrees from “big heavy bullets” to “light fast bullets”, I’m pretty certain we can put a cap on this conversation.
I think there’s a lesson here for everyone, which is primarily “people will insult you over the strangest things.”
September 17th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Find gun discussions without caliber wars would be as shocking as logging on to the web and finding it devoid of porn.
@ Caleb – You’re nuts. Kirk was the man.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:00 am
From a competition standpoint, just shoot what you enjoy most and don’t worry about mag capacity. If you compete in USPSA Single Stack division, as an example, you’re only really competing against others in that division. It doesn’t really matter if a shooter in Limited or Open smokes the course without a reload – they’re not in your division. I’ve competed in all of the divisions, but I’m happiest in Production even though I’ve only got 10 9mm rounds in my mags. I reload all my ammo and settled on 9mm for cost effectiveness. You’d need .40 or .45 for the other divisions that recognize Major PF. It just comes down to what division you want to compete in. 9mm vs .40 vs. .45…paper and steel don’t know the difference. My second favorite gun to shoot is a S&W 625 revolver and I’d shoot it a lot more if it wasn’t so expensive to feed.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:05 am
The hell with you, Picard did everything Kirk could do, and managed to keep his shirt on.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Caleb,
It’s amazing that you can’t read what is on this page. You claim that I’ve gone from “big heavy bullets” to “light fast bullets”… when did I say this? I said energy and momentum. I never said “momentum, but not energy”, and I never said “energy, but not momentum”. The whole point is that all calibers are not the same, because they very in energy and momentum, and these two factors govern wound ballistics — the shape of the wound.
And it’s Ivanova. She would space Kirk and take his toys.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Why in the hell are you people still arguing about this? The differences in wounding potential between the major handgun calibers is statistical noise. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a marketer, or easily baffled by marketing.
Carry what works in your gun, and worry about something more important.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:22 am
What? Ivanova is NOT gay! She was… psy-curious.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:39 am
In a fist fight, Picard would last two second against Kirk.
Also Picard’s greatest nemesis the borg would have lasted one episode against Kirk. He have simply asked them “why” and they would short circuit.
Either that or he would seduce the borg queen and get her to see the error of her ways.
September 17th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I would go with the .55 ACP. Not that I can, but if I could then I would, but since I’m short one act of Congress in that regard, I settle for the .45 ACP.
September 17th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
.55 ACP? Heh. Sign me up for one of those.
September 17th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Clearly, only the .50 GI is cartridge enough to provide sufficient terminal ballistics from a handgun.
Of course, only girls carry a .50 GI. A real man’s gun is a T/C Encore in .458 SOCOM, because real men only need one round.
September 17th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
That’s the nice thing about shooting only .45 ACP — all these furious arguments pass one by, as breezes on a summer day. Competition rules, bullet weight/diameter, stopping power, whatever… all bow down before Col. Cooper’s favorite boolet.
Oh, and if I need added capacity, Mr. McCormick’s 10-rounder is all I need.
September 17th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
But Cooper came up with some stuff that didn’t work out, like the Bren; the 10mm; and the scout rifle.
September 17th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Well, the scout rifle is the answer to a question that isn’t being asked.
I’ve defended it before as a general purpose rifle for a civilian, because the concept of owning one rifle and using it for everything isn’t exactly new.
For someone who doesn’t have the resources to expend on a chock full walk in gun safe, I can see why it would be attractive. I might be off base but I’ve made the comparison in the past to how a good old .30-30’s were used by folks who just owned a few guns.
That is a role that those mil-surp scout style conversions can slide in to pretty effectively, but I ‘m just repeating some stuff I said here a long time back.
September 20th, 2009 at 1:14 am
Wow I missed a bunch. What the heck is the repeated mention of hunting doing in a discussion of common self-defense handgun rounds? All this blather about energy in @ sonic bullets is silly. As long as you can get the bullet to expand from a common sel defense pistol, 9mm = .40 = .45 (of course that is not exactly true and should be 9mm <= .40 <= .45 but would put too much emphasis on the “less than”).
A greater temporary wound channel with common pistol rounds is great in the bad guy getting the idea of “gee I’ve just been shot” department but beyond that it does nothing for stopping the attack in all but the least determined.
If I have the opportunity to choose a weapon for self defense it will be a rifle where all the talk of hunting experience would apply. Big temporary wound cavities and lots of tissue damage are awesome but carrying a rifle on my person is rarely practical. The rest of the time I’ll carry a pistol in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, depending on the season and my whim.