41 it is
I mentioned in this post that I emailed Mr. Smith. He has sent me his data. And his research does note states prohibit the carrying of arms in bars. And that includes Tennessee. As suspected, Rau’s report is misleading. A few issues:
The list includes statutes that ban carrying in bars. Tennessee does not define bars but the bill that passed does stipulate that the places have a kitchen and advertises meals. Some states do. For instance, in Texas, you can carry where alcohol is sold provided less than half of the revenue from the joint comes from alcohol. Also, the list contains Virginia. In VA, you cannot carry concealed at a bar but you can carry openly. It’s not really comparing apples to apples.
The list excludes all ‘may issue’ states except Hawaii. Some ‘may issue’ states (California, Alabama, for example) do not prohibit handgun carry permit holders from carrying where alcohol is served.
The list includes the ‘no issue’ states of Illinois & Wisconsin. And asserts a prohibition on carry in bars. Which is odd, since carry is illegal there.
So, when Rau asserts he is answering the question of:
So, do 37 other states have laws similar to the one Tennessee’s legislature passed this month allowing guns in establishments that serve alcohol?
He is wrong.
Data, as sent to me, below the fold.
Alaska
11.61.220(a)(2) (2004)
Can’t bring a loaded gun into a bar. Must unload the gun.
|
* Arizona
|
Prohibited
|
Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann. §
4-244(29) (2001)
|
Shall Issue
|
Law is being challenged.
|
|
* Arkansas
|
Prohibited
|
Ark. Code Ann. §
5-73-306(a)(12) (2005)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
|
* Florida
|
Prohibited
|
Fla. Stat. Ann. §
790.06(12) (2005) |
Shall Issue
|
|
* Georgia
|
Prohibited
|
Ga. Code Ann. §
16-11-127(a) (2003) |
Shall Issue
|
|
* Hawaii
|
Prohibited
|
|
May Issue
|
|
* Illinois
|
Prohibited
|
Because it is a no-issue state.
|
No-Issue
|
|
* Kansas
|
Prohibited
|
KN. Stat. Ann. 22-3901.
(See email)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* Kentucky
|
Prohibited
|
Ky. Rev. Stat. Ann. §
237.110(13)(e) (2006)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* Louisiana
|
Prohibited
|
R.S. 40:1379.3 (see email) La. Rev. Stat. Ann. §
40:1379.3(N)(10) (2004)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* Maine
|
Prohibited
|
La. Rev. Stat. Ann. §
40:1379.3(N)(10) (2004)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* Michigan
|
Prohibited
|
28.425o; Mich. Comp. Laws. Ann. §
28.425o(d) (2004)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
*
Mississippi |
Prohibited
|
Sec. Miss. Code Ann. §
45-9-101(13) (2004)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* Missouri
|
Prohibited
|
Mo. Rev. Stat. §
571.107(1)(7) (2006) |
Shall Issue
|
|
* Montana
|
Prohibited
|
Shall Issue
|
|
|
* Nebraska
|
Prohibited
|
Sec. 69-2441 (lcav.org)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* New Mexico
|
Prohibited
|
N.M. Stat. Ann Section 30-7-3 (1978)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
North Carolina
|
Prohibited
|
N.C. Gen. Stat. 14-269.3(a)
(2006) N.C. Gen. Stat.
14-415.11(c) (2006) |
Shall Issue
|
|
* North
Dakota |
Prohibited
|
N.D. Cent. Code § 62.1-02-04;
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* Ohio
|
Prohibited
|
Ohio Rev. Code Ann. §
2923.12.6(B)(4) (2005)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* Oklahoma
|
Prohibited
|
Okla. Stat. tit. 21 §
1272.1(A) (2006) |
Shall Issue
|
|
* South
Carolina |
Prohibited
|
S.C. Code Ann. § 16-23-465
(2003) |
Shall Issue
|
|
* South
Dakota |
Prohibited
|
S.D. Codified Laws §
23-7-8.1 (2005) |
Shall Issue
|
|
Tennessee (prior law)
|
Prohibited
|
Tenn. Code Ann. §
39-17-1305 (2006) |
Shall Issue
|
|
* Texas
|
Prohibited
|
Tex. code Ann. § 411.204(a)
(Supp. 2005) Tex. code Ann. §
46.035(b)(1) (Supp. 2005)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
* Virginia (allows open carry. prohibits concealed carry in bars)
|
Prohibited
|
Va. Code Ann. §
18.2-308(J3) (2005) |
Shall Issue
|
|
* Washington
|
Prohibited
|
Wash. Rev. Code §
9.41.300(1)(d) (2003)
|
Shall Issue
|
|
Wyoming
|
Prohibited
|
Wyo. Stat. Ann. §
6-8-104(t)(vii) (2005)
|
Shall Issue
|
also WI is a flat no issue state.
June 18th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Well, good on Mr. Smith for providing you his data… However, as always, the saying, “Figures never lie, but liars figure,” seems to hold true. If you define your playing field narrowly enough, you can get pretty much any answer you want out of any given data set.
On a related note, I see OpenCarry.org updated their map concerning Georgia.
June 18th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
How many CCW (or CHL, or whatever a state may call it) licensees have been convicted of a crime involving illegal use of their concealed handgun in a restaurant or bar, where alcohol was also involved?
That is the fundamental point of the argument. The anti-rights folk are using a spurious argument, an insane argument, with their claim that otherwise law abiding individuals will break the law and drink to the point of behaving violently and negligently with their guns. This is an insult to all law-abiding licensees.
This claim is essentially a blood libel, meant to incite a negative action against law-abiding citizens. It must be ridiculed, it must be refuted, it must be stopped for the insanity it is.
So how many times, in all those states with all those confusing laws about legal carry and restaurants and drinking, have licensees misused their firearms?
Not enough to make the case for infringing against lawful carry.
June 18th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Oregon is a “shall issue” state with no restrictions about guns in bars or restaurants. In OR, you are prohibited from carry in courthouses, and libraries if the County passes a restriction (mine does).
In OR, to my knowledge, and I’ve kept up with this for almost two decades, there have been exactly TWO investigated uses of a CHL’s weapon in a bar, and one was out in the parking lot. Score: the parking lot one was a justifiable homicide, and the one inside the bar wasn’t. So, ONE, each and only, conviction resulting from concealed carry in bars. We have just shy of 188K permitees now, I believe.
June 18th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Virginia also does not have “bars”. It has places where alcohol is sold for on-premises consumption — regardless of what proportion of their revenue is from alcohol sales.
The “restaurant ban repeal” failed again this year. The governor vetoed it and the legislature didn’t override his veto.
June 18th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
His data for Texas is incorrect. In Texas, bars or establishments that derive 51% of their income from serving alcohol have to post a “51%” sign and those establishments are off limits to CHL holders.
The vast majority of other restaurants that serve alcohol are not 51% and CHL holders can carry in them unless the restaurant chooses to prohibit the practice.
In summary: In Texas, CHL holders can carry concealed handguns into the vast majority of establishments that serve alcohol for consumption on the premises.
June 18th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
MI allows carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, but not bars. Seems to carry along the same lines as the TN law, just worded how the bar is defined differently.
28.425o
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises.
June 19th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I like how MA didn’t make the list at all.
Interestingly enough, MA has no prohibitions whatsoever against carrying in bars, restaurants, etc.
You can’t be legally drunk while carrying, but that’s about it.
Oh, and the whole circus involved in actually GETTING your permit, too…
June 19th, 2009 at 10:51 am
WI has open carry w/o permits, Uncle. We cannot carry on any premises that have a class B liquor license (permanent or temporary). This means we can carry in restaraunts that serve only wine and beer, but not liquor, for consumption on the premises. Technically, I’m going to give him WI as “true,” even though I’m currently researching the status of micro-breweries (I’m not sure what type of license they have to brew and sell their beer).
June 19th, 2009 at 10:52 am
To clarify, the wine and beer only license to which I referred is a Class C…
June 19th, 2009 at 11:35 am
And as I noted on an earlier post, Missouri only restricts carry in places where less than 50% of the revenue is from food.
So Applebees, to pick one example, is just fine.
And in those actual ‘bars’ you can still legally carry concealed as long as you have permission from the owner / manager.
June 19th, 2009 at 11:43 am
It is not clear to me _exactly_ what he is claiming but in Washington it is only prohibited to carry in the “age restricted” portion of “establishments that serve alcohol”. In areas of a restaurant where minors (< 21) are allowed and where alcohol is served you _can_ carry a firearm — concealed with a permit or openly without a permit.
Bar restriction:
RCW 9.41.300
(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
…
(d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age; or
…
In the linked article he also notes:
“A 1983 Washington state Supreme Court ruling upheld the constitutionality of a municipal ordinance limiting the possession of firearms where alcoholic beverages are dispensed by the drink.”
While possibly true technically (he doesn’t provide a cite), it is in effect an outright lie: in 1983 the WA legislature passed a state preemption law.
RCW 9.41.290
State preemption.
The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
June 20th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Wisconsin is a open carry state no license required but handguns are baned in places that serve alcohol, long gun’s are not you can carry a loaded shotgun in to a bar.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:09 am
If I understand your argument, you’re saying that 41 states do allow carry where alcohol is served. Could you please list them and under what condition carry is allowed?
thanks
June 25th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Here.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:17 am
David, see my comment above. There are 41 states that allow some form of carry where alcohol is served. There are also some states that forbid it. 41 states apparently legalize some form of handgun carry where drinking is occurring.
The insane argument is that state licensed, legally acting, law-abiding citizens should be forbidden from exercising a constitutionally enumerated right because of the possibility they will consume alcohol (in many cases, illegally) while carrying a gun, to the point of acting illegally, negligently, and violently with their guns.
That this scenario has NOT occurred in any notable numbers in any state (out of the 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, or 41 states that have some form of legal carry around alcohol) NEGATES the anti-gun argument no matter which number, out of the numbers cited, of states allow the practice.
The argument is FALSE. It has been disproven. Don’t make me go all “Monty Python Parrot Sketch” on this point.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:35 am
No no no…. Don’t mistake my question as being opposed to allowing carry. In fact I’m in favor of unrestricted carry period. I just wanted details. We’re trying to get a law passed here in AZ to allow carry in restaurants that serve alcohol and the best argument by the anti-gunners is “alcohol and guns don’t mix”. They don’t understand that guns are being carried now, it’s just not lawful.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:39 am
This lawyer is playing semantics. It’s true that 41 (or 37 or whatever) states don’t have laws like the one that TN just passed and the one that we want passed in AZ. However they don’t need one because it’s already allowed by the current carry laws.