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	<title>Comments on: How Did We Get Here?</title>
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	<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/</link>
	<description>Remember, I do this to entertain me... not you.</description>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-208019</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 04:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-208019</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The market did a good job of curbing such behavior.&lt;/i&gt;

You mean like in the late 80&#039;s?  Oh, never mind...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The market did a good job of curbing such behavior.</i></p>
<p>You mean like in the late 80&#8242;s?  Oh, never mind&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-208018</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 03:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-208018</guid>
		<description>The article seems to follow the usual knee-jerk liberal pattern: regulation good, deregulation bad, never mind the substance of the regulation in question or whether it has anything to do with what went wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article seems to follow the usual knee-jerk liberal pattern: regulation good, deregulation bad, never mind the substance of the regulation in question or whether it has anything to do with what went wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: karrde</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-208013</link>
		<dc:creator>karrde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 02:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-208013</guid>
		<description>In that very &lt;i&gt;WSJ&lt;/i&gt; article, the author of the article notes quite plainly that the banks which are in trouble now...could have done the same thing in 1998, before the de-regulation to which Clinton refers occurred.

Lack of regulations may have been part of the problem, but in the past, banks didn&#039;t have to be told by lawmakers to avoid making bad loans. The market did a good job of curbing such behavior.

I suspect most of the problem was that certain institutions (Feddie Mae/Fannie Mac) behaved as if they could get Uncle Sam to make up the difference with any bad loans that cropped up. That, plus the regulatory/non-regulatory pressures with respect to minorities, led to the creation of no-down/no-documentation/no-credit loans. Once the easy loans were available, many people wanted them (because they were cheaper than standard loans), leading to the credit bubble. 

Of course, there&#039;s another specific regulation that made things worse.

Imagine a business in which the owner has to mark the inventory value of all of his stock down because his competitor had a fire-sale, and offered some real bargains.

Congress told all financial institutions to do that with the &quot;Mark-to-market&quot; rule. By itself, it is not responsible for much. In collusion with the bursting of the credit bubble, it turns marginal banks into shaky/insolvent banks rapidly.

I think I&#039;ll take back my statement about us possibly agreeing. Tgirsh, I don&#039;t agree that de-regulation is at fault. At most, it shares fault with specific regulations that were enacted later. At least, it was almost-inconsequential.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In that very <i>WSJ</i> article, the author of the article notes quite plainly that the banks which are in trouble now&#8230;could have done the same thing in 1998, before the de-regulation to which Clinton refers occurred.</p>
<p>Lack of regulations may have been part of the problem, but in the past, banks didn&#8217;t have to be told by lawmakers to avoid making bad loans. The market did a good job of curbing such behavior.</p>
<p>I suspect most of the problem was that certain institutions (Feddie Mae/Fannie Mac) behaved as if they could get Uncle Sam to make up the difference with any bad loans that cropped up. That, plus the regulatory/non-regulatory pressures with respect to minorities, led to the creation of no-down/no-documentation/no-credit loans. Once the easy loans were available, many people wanted them (because they were cheaper than standard loans), leading to the credit bubble. </p>
<p>Of course, there&#8217;s another specific regulation that made things worse.</p>
<p>Imagine a business in which the owner has to mark the inventory value of all of his stock down because his competitor had a fire-sale, and offered some real bargains.</p>
<p>Congress told all financial institutions to do that with the &#8220;Mark-to-market&#8221; rule. By itself, it is not responsible for much. In collusion with the bursting of the credit bubble, it turns marginal banks into shaky/insolvent banks rapidly.</p>
<p>I think I&#8217;ll take back my statement about us possibly agreeing. Tgirsh, I don&#8217;t agree that de-regulation is at fault. At most, it shares fault with specific regulations that were enacted later. At least, it was almost-inconsequential.</p>
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		<title>By: straightarrow</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-208012</link>
		<dc:creator>straightarrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-208012</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not going to repeat it. You have had ample opportunity to read it, not just from me, but much more vetted sources. That you choose to engage in circle argument says all anyone needs to know about the validity of your opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not going to repeat it. You have had ample opportunity to read it, not just from me, but much more vetted sources. That you choose to engage in circle argument says all anyone needs to know about the validity of your opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-208002</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-208002</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Regulators got us in this.&lt;/i&gt;

How, exactly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Regulators got us in this.</i></p>
<p>How, exactly?</p>
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		<title>By: straightarrow</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-208001</link>
		<dc:creator>straightarrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-208001</guid>
		<description>Now, if you meant to say you are glad I am not in favor of Laissez Faire (sp) you would be correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, if you meant to say you are glad I am not in favor of Laissez Faire (sp) you would be correct.</p>
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		<title>By: straightarrow</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-208000</link>
		<dc:creator>straightarrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-208000</guid>
		<description>nice try, no cigar.  Regulators got us in this. I am more in favor of prosecution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nice try, no cigar.  Regulators got us in this. I am more in favor of prosecution.</p>
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		<title>By: Manish</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207975</link>
		<dc:creator>Manish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207975</guid>
		<description>Hey SA...glad to see that you are in favor of regulation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey SA&#8230;glad to see that you are in favor of regulation.</p>
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		<title>By: straightarrow</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207957</link>
		<dc:creator>straightarrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207957</guid>
		<description>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs</a></p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207956</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207956</guid>
		<description>And while I&#039;m thinking about it, when, exactly, did I let:

1. Fannie and Freddie, or
2. Democrats

...off the hook?

The deregulation of the late 1990&#039;s passed by a wide bipartisan margin, and was signed into law by Clinton (which is probably why he&#039;s denying its importance now -- wouldn&#039;t want to tarnish the legacy, doncha know...).  The hands of the Democrats are far from clean here.

And sorry, but while fixing Fannie and Freddie may have lessened the impact here, it would at best have delayed the problem, and little more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And while I&#8217;m thinking about it, when, exactly, did I let:</p>
<p>1. Fannie and Freddie, or<br />
2. Democrats</p>
<p>&#8230;off the hook?</p>
<p>The deregulation of the late 1990&#8242;s passed by a wide bipartisan margin, and was signed into law by Clinton (which is probably why he&#8217;s denying its importance now &#8212; wouldn&#8217;t want to tarnish the legacy, doncha know&#8230;).  The hands of the Democrats are far from clean here.</p>
<p>And sorry, but while fixing Fannie and Freddie may have lessened the impact here, it would at best have delayed the problem, and little more.</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207955</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207955</guid>
		<description>Oh, and and what point did I (or even &quot;we&quot;) argue that lenders should extend irresponsible home equity loans, or mortgages for massively upsizing pre-existing homeowners?  When, exactly, did &quot;we&quot; say we wanted this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and and what point did I (or even &#8220;we&#8221;) argue that lenders should extend irresponsible home equity loans, or mortgages for massively upsizing pre-existing homeowners?  When, exactly, did &#8220;we&#8221; say we wanted this?</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207953</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:30:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207953</guid>
		<description>Why do I get the distinct impression that people are commenting without bothering to read the friggin&#039; article?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do I get the distinct impression that people are commenting without bothering to read the friggin&#8217; article?</p>
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		<title>By: Yu-Ain Gonnano</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207947</link>
		<dc:creator>Yu-Ain Gonnano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207947</guid>
		<description>The problem tgirsch is that without the low teaser rate the customer wouldn&#039;t have been able to pay even their *first* payment.  You wanted the lenders to extend credit to bad customers, don&#039;t get upset with the lenders when they have to get creative to do what *you* wanted them to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem tgirsch is that without the low teaser rate the customer wouldn&#8217;t have been able to pay even their *first* payment.  You wanted the lenders to extend credit to bad customers, don&#8217;t get upset with the lenders when they have to get creative to do what *you* wanted them to.</p>
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		<title>By: karrde</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207943</link>
		<dc:creator>karrde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207943</guid>
		<description>Now this is wierd.

In the &lt;i&gt;WSJ&lt;/i&gt;, Bill Clinton is quoted as saying that deregulation didn&#039;t make it any easier for Investment Banks to get themselves into trouble. 

Story &lt;a href=&quot;http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122282635048992995.html?mod=todays_us_opinion&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now this is wierd.</p>
<p>In the <i>WSJ</i>, Bill Clinton is quoted as saying that deregulation didn&#8217;t make it any easier for Investment Banks to get themselves into trouble. </p>
<p>Story <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122282635048992995.html?mod=todays_us_opinion" rel="nofollow">here.</a></p>
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		<title>By: karrde</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207941</link>
		<dc:creator>karrde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207941</guid>
		<description>You know, I think we&#039;re both blaming the lack of regulations.

Except that John McCain (and G.W. Bush) tried to tighten the regulations on a piece of the puzzle (Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac), and powerful CongressCritters told them to shut up.

It may or may not have been a particular party; it was definitely CongressCritters who were good friends with the powerful officials at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

The rest of the banking system exacerbated the problem. The portion of America that thinks that debt is a way to get something for nothing exacerbated the problem.

Want to blame the whole thing on specific de-regulation, when there are so many other pieces to this puzzle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I think we&#8217;re both blaming the lack of regulations.</p>
<p>Except that John McCain (and G.W. Bush) tried to tighten the regulations on a piece of the puzzle (Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac), and powerful CongressCritters told them to shut up.</p>
<p>It may or may not have been a particular party; it was definitely CongressCritters who were good friends with the powerful officials at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.</p>
<p>The rest of the banking system exacerbated the problem. The portion of America that thinks that debt is a way to get something for nothing exacerbated the problem.</p>
<p>Want to blame the whole thing on specific de-regulation, when there are so many other pieces to this puzzle?</p>
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		<title>By: Roberta X</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207940</link>
		<dc:creator>Roberta X</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207940</guid>
		<description>Ah, the lies of the Left.  They use Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as cash-cows, fight stronger regulation of them tooth and nail, then blame those goofy wingnuts and their deregulation when it all goes to pot.

     Keep pushin&#039;, tgirsh -- you will turn me from a Libertarian to a Republican if you keep it up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, the lies of the Left.  They use Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as cash-cows, fight stronger regulation of them tooth and nail, then blame those goofy wingnuts and their deregulation when it all goes to pot.</p>
<p>     Keep pushin&#8217;, tgirsh &#8212; you will turn me from a Libertarian to a Republican if you keep it up!</p>
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		<title>By: Manish</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207939</link>
		<dc:creator>Manish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 06:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207939</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve created a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/1/1119/15485/42/616270&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;write up&lt;/a&gt; on this whole CRA argument.  (yes, its on Kos..I have no blog and no other place to post anything that I might be thinking about at a particular time, so sue me).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve created a <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/1/1119/15485/42/616270" rel="nofollow">write up</a> on this whole CRA argument.  (yes, its on Kos..I have no blog and no other place to post anything that I might be thinking about at a particular time, so sue me).</p>
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		<title>By: tgirsch</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207938</link>
		<dc:creator>tgirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 04:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207938</guid>
		<description>Also, if you note, it&#039;s not the bad mortgages in and of themselves that were the problem.  It&#039;s that the lending banks &lt;i&gt;knew&lt;/i&gt; they were bad mortgages, and they sold securities backed by the bad mortgages -- a practice that wouldn&#039;t have been allowed under pre-1999 regulations.

Further, as Manish and others have pointed out elsewhere, while the government did in fact encourage subprime lending to expand home ownership, they certainly didn&#039;t mandate the types of &quot;Countrywide&quot; style loans, with low &quot;teaser&quot; rates but exorbitant ARMs later, that are at the core of the mortgage crisis we&#039;ve been facing for the past year.  It&#039;s also worth noting, as Manish does, that CRA type lending has little to do with it.  Most of the problem involved middle-class and upper-middle-class people trying to live beyond their means and overextending for that four bedroom dream house in the affluent suburbs (hoping that the value would go up and they could refinance before the teaser expired), and/or taking out home equity loans to pay for that vacation or Harley or whatever, not poor minorities buying their first house.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, if you note, it&#8217;s not the bad mortgages in and of themselves that were the problem.  It&#8217;s that the lending banks <i>knew</i> they were bad mortgages, and they sold securities backed by the bad mortgages &#8212; a practice that wouldn&#8217;t have been allowed under pre-1999 regulations.</p>
<p>Further, as Manish and others have pointed out elsewhere, while the government did in fact encourage subprime lending to expand home ownership, they certainly didn&#8217;t mandate the types of &#8220;Countrywide&#8221; style loans, with low &#8220;teaser&#8221; rates but exorbitant ARMs later, that are at the core of the mortgage crisis we&#8217;ve been facing for the past year.  It&#8217;s also worth noting, as Manish does, that CRA type lending has little to do with it.  Most of the problem involved middle-class and upper-middle-class people trying to live beyond their means and overextending for that four bedroom dream house in the affluent suburbs (hoping that the value would go up and they could refinance before the teaser expired), and/or taking out home equity loans to pay for that vacation or Harley or whatever, not poor minorities buying their first house.</p>
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		<title>By: Manish</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207937</link>
		<dc:creator>Manish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 04:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207937</guid>
		<description>cyrus..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hale-stewart/memo-to-republicans-cra-h_b_127599.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CRA&lt;/a&gt; has nothing to do with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cyrus..<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hale-stewart/memo-to-republicans-cra-h_b_127599.html" rel="nofollow">CRA</a> has nothing to do with it.</p>
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		<title>By: emdfl</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207935</link>
		<dc:creator>emdfl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 03:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207935</guid>
		<description>They were.  It&#039;s just that saying that makes it harder for lib/demos to blame it all on conserv/repubs.

Actually itis a little more complicated then that. There are several good youTube video going around that do a pretty good job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They were.  It&#8217;s just that saying that makes it harder for lib/demos to blame it all on conserv/repubs.</p>
<p>Actually itis a little more complicated then that. There are several good youTube video going around that do a pretty good job.</p>
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		<title>By: cyrus</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207933</link>
		<dc:creator>cyrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 02:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207933</guid>
		<description>&quot;Lately, housing prices got an extra nudge from artificially cheap mortgages extended to people who didn&#039;t really qualify for credit...Thanks to deregulation, the entire game operated largely beyond the purview of bank examiners.&quot;

See i thought that the cheap mortgages were pushed because of CRA and the likes of ACORN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Lately, housing prices got an extra nudge from artificially cheap mortgages extended to people who didn&#8217;t really qualify for credit&#8230;Thanks to deregulation, the entire game operated largely beyond the purview of bank examiners.&#8221;</p>
<p>See i thought that the cheap mortgages were pushed because of CRA and the likes of ACORN</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act</a></p>
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		<title>By: gattsuru</title>
		<link>http://www.saysuncle.com/2008/09/30/how-did-we-get-here/comment-page-1/#comment-207926</link>
		<dc:creator>gattsuru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.saysuncle.com/?p=18705#comment-207926</guid>
		<description>The point where it claimed unemployment insurance had weakened reached official wall-banger status.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point where it claimed unemployment insurance had weakened reached official wall-banger status.</p>
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