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Mass murderers v. armed citizens

I’ve seen this said today, most recently by Kevin who notes:

having more people armed in a situation like that is a recipe for more innocent deaths, not less.

There is a definite lack of data regarding mass murderers v. armed citizens. I can only think of two instances where such a confrontation occurred:

1 Tyler, Texas: Shooter on the loose. Mark Wilson hears the noise and grabs a gun. He intervenes and saves the life of one man (who turns out to be the shooters’ son). He also drew fire from the murderer and likely saved more lives. Sadly, Mr. Wilson was murdered on the scene.

2 Tacoma, WA: Brendan “Dan” McKown was delivering a bank deposit for Excalibur Cutlery, a mall gift store, when gunshots scattered shoppers at noon in Tacoma. Dan McKown was an armed CCW holder. Witnesses state that McKown stood about 20 feet from the gunman when he faced him and drew his own pistol before being shot. Whether he spoke to the gunman is unknown. “Our understanding is that Dan drew his weapon and confronted the gunman,” his stepmother, Beverly McKown, said during a news conference Tuesday at Tacoma General Hospital. ďDan is always one who believed in protecting people and he put his life on the line for other people,Ē McKown’s father said. ďHis actions and the actions of others like him may have prevented additional casualties by confronting the aggression and possibly changing the gunmanís action early in the conflict.Ē

Those are the only two cases I know of where a would-be mass murderer was confronted by an armed citizen. And, in both cases, the death toll was likely minimized. Given a choice, I like those odds better than lined up and shot.

3 Update: Make that three. I forgot (courtesy of Mr. Burnside), about Pete Odighizuwa. He’s the man who killed three innocent people at the Appalachian School of Law. But was likely stopped by two armed students who had to run to their cars to get their guns. There’s some dispute as to what caused Pete O. to surrender because he was also out of ammo.

4 Update 2: Another, via comments, was the Utah mall shooting:

An off-duty police officer having an early Valentine’s Day dinner with his wife was credited Tuesday with helping stop a rampage in a crowded shopping mall by an 18-year-old gunman who killed five people before he was cut down.

He was off duty. Good thing he disregarded the mall’s no gun policy that day. And another one:

5 In Pearl, Mississippi:

Vice Principal Joel Myrick held his Colt .45 point blank to the high school boy’s head. Last week, he told me what it was like. “I said ‘why are you shooting my kids?’ He said it was because nobody liked him and everything seemed hopeless,” Myrick said. “Then I asked him his name. He said ‘you know me, Mr. Myrick. Remember? I gave you a discount on your pizza delivery last week.”

I still like these odds. Anyone got more?

And, since I’m laying odds, think any of these will be pointed out in the press in their coming discussion of gun control?

6 another: A knife-wielding grocery store employee attacked eight co-workers Friday, seriously injuring five before a witness pulled a gun and stopped him, police said.

7 Allen Crum, an armed citizen, was deputized when Charles Whitman climbed a tower and started shooting people. Read Mr. Crum’s account here. He used a borrowed rifle.

8 Kenneth Gage.

58 Responses to “Mass murderers v. armed citizens”

  1. Nate Says:

    Don’t forget the Pearl, Mississippi school shootings, and the Utah mall ones recently. Unless you are counting the Utah guy as LEO.

  2. ben Says:

    Among the reason that Kevin’s point is wrong, a primary reason, is that those who would defend against the crazy guy don’t actually want to shoot ANYONE, but given the choice between being lined up and defending themselves and others, they might shoot someone. Dan McKown prooved that.

    That, and it is likely that the identity of the bad guy will be obvious, since everyone else will be cowering on the floor, or taking cover. And if you’re in the immediate vicinity of the bad guy, his identity will be painfully obvious, so much so that everyone else in the room will be praying that someone else will start spraying bullets in the bad guy’s direction.

  3. #9 Says:

    Or we can follow the advice from the guru of progressiveville.

    Breathtakingly stupid.

  4. Freedonian Says:

    Okay, just a few quick notes here:

    Tyler: You really have to turn logic on its head to see the Tyler crisis as having been solved by guns. Arroyo fired 116 rounds from a legally obtained MAK-90 while wearing legally obtained body armor to keep Wilson and the police from stopping him until a police sharpshooter gave him a tap to the head.

    Tacoma: McKown is brave, and I’ll not take that away from him. He didn’t shoot the gunman, and was shot himself. So other than not dying, just how is it that he kept the body count down?

    Appalachian: Thank you for honestly pointing out that the shooter was out of bullets and was disarmed by what was by that point a blunt object by two guys with guns.

    Utah: Where in the world are you getting the idea that the policeman was ignoring the law to carry his gun in a shopping mall? There are virtually no restrictions on where you can carry a gun in Utah. There’s currently a challenge to the rights of churches and schools that want them kept out, and the Attorney General has made it so any CCW holder (Which is to say, anyone that owns a gun) can carry them into state buildings.

  5. Snowflakes in Hell » Mass Shootings Stopped by Armed Citizens Says:

    [...] SayUncle has the roundup. [...]

  6. SayUncle Says:

    Freedonian, I didn’t say Tyler was solved. I said he saved lives.

    I didn’t say the Utah mall policeman broke the law. said he disregarded the Mall’s ‘no guns’ policy.

    Reading comprehension: It’s what’s for dinner.

    ETA: I’ve met and talked to Dan. The incident was a bit more than just him getting shot.

  7. Sebastian Says:

    In the tyler case, because the shooter had an armed attacker to deal with, which bought enough time for the police to take him down.

    McKown didn’t shoot, you’re correct. He froze. It happens to a lot of police officers too.

  8. Freedonian Says:

    Unc, the mall, under state law, cannot keep the guns out. Check the law. You can’t even keep the guns out of a Utah courthouse.

    In Tyler— He saved a life. Lost his own. I applaud what he did, but you’re sidestepping the real issue— This problem was caused by virtually unrestricted access to firearms. Not solved by it, nor was it even a significant contribution. Here’s the video. Wilson’s attempt at stopping the killer was very early in a lengthy standoff that ended several minutes later as the shooter was running to get into a car. Romanticize it all you like, but Wilson’s distraction had nothing to do with why a sharpshooter was eventually able to get the drop several minutes later.

    Research. It’s what’s for dessert.

  9. Bruce Says:

    Add Kenneth Gage to the list.

  10. SayUncle Says:

    Does that mean that the mall cannot have a policy? Such as, oh I dunno, the one on their sign?

    This problem was caused by virtually unrestricted access to firearms.

    No. I have access to firearms (and if you’re seriously asserting that there is virtually unrestricted access to them, you’re quite delusional) and I have killed no one. A nutjob caused the incident. And that’s that.

    I’m not romanticizing anything. I stated from the get-go he saved one life and drew fire for a while, thereby affording others the ability to leave the area. no matter how hard you try to put the words in my mouth, that’s not what I said.

    Research. Itís whatís for dessert.

    Yeah, see line about virtually unrestricted access.

    ETA: the mall, under state law, cannot keep the guns out.

    Really?

  11. Sebastian Says:

    Wilson’s mistake is he ignored one of the rules of gunfighting. If you know you’re going to get into a gunfight, bring a rifle. The problem wasn’t unrestricted access, it was a poor choice of shooting implement. If I hear someone outside of my house shooting up the neighborhood, you can bet I’m grabbing the AR-15 rather than my Glock. There’s no such thing as a fair gunfight.

  12. straightarrow Says:

    Freedonian, just wear a sign around your neck stating you will not accept rescue from people armed with guns. There! Problem solved.

    I promise, I will let them kill you if you truly believe that is some moral imperative. However, if you don’t mind, or even if you do, I will not let them kill me or others sans signs. If you wear the sign, you may die pure, I won’t interfere should we ever find ourselves at the same place in the same dire straits. For all those not wearing signs, I will assume a ‘friendly’ gunman would be welcome when staring down the bore of that long dark eternity.

  13. Freedonian Says:

    *Sigh* You know, when I say “Research, it’s what’s for dessert”, you can count on the fact that I’m a step or two ahead of you.

    First off, there’s section 76-10-523, clause C. Even if the statute is changed, there are no restrictions on where a peace officer “of this or any other jurisdiction” can carry a weapon. There’s never been a single case establishing that the peace officer has to be on duty.

    Second, 76-10-530 tells you where you can and cannot carry. You will not find “place of business” listed. But hey, if you had the reading comprehension level required to peruse your own sources, you would have seen this: Naturally, private property owners may apply what ever restrictions they want, whether or not these restrictions violates ones personal rights is for the civil courts to decide. But the only statutory restriction on a permit holder is secured areas such as airports and federal buildings.

    So, yes. REALLY.

  14. Freedonian Says:

    The problem wasnít unrestricted access, it was a poor choice of shooting implement.

    No, the problem was near unrestricted access— Not Wilson’s, but the shooter’s. Even with an AR-15, he would have had trouble against a guy with a MAK-90, a bare minimum of 116 bullets (I know how many he fired, but not how many he had) and body armor.

  15. Freedonian Says:

    Freedonian, just wear a sign around your neck stating you will not accept rescue from people armed with guns. There! Problem solved.

    Considering that the only case you can present where the gun owners actually made a positive impact was when it was an off duty policeman, then I thank you for that. I’ve faced down the gun before. And I won. You guys really do not scare me.

  16. SayUncle Says:

    Freedie (can I call you that?), I realize your reading comprehension sucks monkey balls but simple questions (because, really, short of writing my point on a baseball bat and beating you about the head and neck area, I don’t know how to get you to see the point):

    Can a place of business in Utah place a sign on the front door prohibiting the carrying of weapons?

    If so, can they ask you to leave if you fail to comply?

    That aside:

    Considering that the only case you can present where the gun owners actually made a positive impact was when it was an off duty policeman,

    this post has now been updated and there are 8 incidents listed. You’ve set your sights on one (hehe, sights. more of that unrestricted access, eh?). And done so rather poorly. Even the police involved disagree with you (but you didn’t read that far, did you?).

    Again, pay attention.

    And, to compound your ignorance of the issue:

    Not Wilsonís, but the shooterís. Even with an AR-15, he would have had trouble against a guy with a MAK-90, a bare minimum of 116 bullets (I know how many he fired, but not how many he had) and body armor.

    116 Bullets! Oh noes! I have that in my car.

    You have no idea what a MAK-90 or an AR-15 is, do you? Both are comparable.

    Body armor (vest) such as the one worn in Tyler texas and the police are rated for handgun fire. Such vests would not stop 5.56Nato (the AR) nor would they stop 7.62X39 (the MAK). They also won’t stop hunting rifles, which are much more powerful.

  17. Freedonian Says:

    (because, really, short of writing my point on a baseball bat and beating you about the head and neck area, I donít know how to get you to see the point)

    Well if you can do all that, then surely you don’t need a gun.

    Can a place of business in Utah place a sign on the front door prohibiting the carrying of weapons?

    Sure. They can. But there is no staute making it illegal to walk in with one anyway. Your own source said that. All I did was point out the only places a CCW holder can’t carry in Utah, and pointed out that a police officer isn’t subject even to those.

    You have no idea what a MAK-90 or an AR-15 is, do you? Both are comparable.

    Oh, you got me good there! I admit that I don’t share your obsession with guns. Maybe it’s because I have a functioning penis, but I don’t feel the need.

    I watched his MAK-90 in action. If you did too, you’d understand that Wilson’s actions had as much an effect on the outcome of that standoff as a cheerleader farting has on whether or not Kobe hits a three pointer in the fourth.

    Body armor (vest) such as the one worn in Tyler texas and the police are rated for handgun fire. Such vests would not stop 5.56Nato (the AR) nor would they stop 7.62X39 (the MAK). They also wonít stop hunting rifles, which are much more powerful.

    And?

  18. SayUncle Says:

    “But there is no staute making it illegal to walk in with one anyway.”

    You asserted the mall cannot keep guns out. But we now see they can. Just because it’s not illegal, doesn’t mean the mall has no recourse. You lose.

    Oh, you got me good there! I admit that I donít share your obsession with guns.

    Research. Itís whatís for dessert.

    Maybe itís because I have a functioning penis, but I donít feel the need.

    Dick joke. So original. I guess when you have nothing, you insult. What about my wife’s gun? Oh, yeah. No penis, right.

    And?

    You’re the one that mentioned the vest v. rifles.

    And with that, I’ll leave you to your delusional little world. And (please understand that I mean this with the utmost sincerity) you’re an idiotic bore who can’t rub two brain cells together to make an identifiable point. You keep moving the goalposts and changing your assertions and even mine. And when I address your comments, you become a hysterical pants-shitter who makes dick jokes. You really are a buffoon.

  19. Freedonian Says:

    LOL!! You’re the guy that vomited up talking points that didn’t even support your case on the Utah thing! I mean really… Calling me an idiot while you undermine your own argument???

    I love the smell of burning talking points in the afternoon…

  20. SayUncle Says:

    another challenge: find the source of my alleged ‘talking points’. Go ahead, I’ll wait. But you probably don’t even understand that point either. You’re really not too bright.

  21. Freedonian Says:

    I did go to the source of your talking points. It was a site full of retarded misinformation called Packing.org. The problem is that when I looked up the statutes in question, they didn’t match up to what you were trying to tell me. Look it up. My link is still there. The only places where a CCW holder is forbidden to carry a firearm: Churches (Not that the NRA isn’t pushing to have that lifted) and private residences. Here it is if you need to read it.

    Now, if I’m given the choice of reading the law according to an ideologically driven website, one side or the other, or the government that made the law, I’ll probably choose to go straight to the government’s website and read the statute for myself. And this is twice now that I’ve offered you the chance to do so yourself. If nothing else, it would be helpful not to rely on talking points from websites that aren’t playing straight with you, wouldn’t you think?

  22. SayUncle Says:

    I did look it up. You still don’t get it. I never once said it was unlawful to disregard the posted notice. You are arguing a point I’ve not made. I said the mall can enforce its gun policy and it can. Again with the idiocy.

    Packing.org is a fine resource for state gun laws and (since you found it, you’d know) links to the code.

    if Iím given the choice of reading the law according to an ideologically driven website

    Is that why you sourced the brady campaign? Which, btw, doesn’t even link to the law. We’ll add hypocrite to your list of offenses.

    Of my alleged ‘talking points’, you’ve addressed one that I didn’t even make. Meanwhile, you’re parroting the brady campaign.

    You’re either an idiot or intellectually dishonest. I’m starting to see why no one reads your blog.

  23. Freedonian Says:

    Actually, I’d already seen the statute. I just love tweaking the brainless by posting links to Brady. :)

    I’m not parroting Brady— The only time I quoted them, I was proven right. In all the other cases, I just looked up information about the cases you provided, and pointed out that they were horse shit.

    As far as no one reading my blog— My numbers are pretty strong for a rookie. Besides— I’d rather have less people reading me, but a higher percentage taking me seriously. In case you didn’t recognize that, it’s the ass opposite of your side— Widely read by people that laugh at you behind your back.

  24. Freedonian Says:

    Hey, this is kind of neat— Without even trying, you’ve proven another of the many points I bring up over and over again. Good job!

    The assailant didn’t have a gun when he went on his rampage. The whopping body count?

    Zero.

    Thanks! I had forgotten all about that, and it happened in my hometown!

  25. SayUncle Says:

    Wow. You really are stupid. Mass murder doesn’t mean with a gun (McVeigh anyone?). But a guy with a gun stopped him before it got worse.

    Though it does make me laugh to see how divorced from the real world you are.

    You’re about to exceed your ‘tard limit.

  26. #9 Says:

    Freedonian, isn’t your name more than a little duplicitous? I don’t see anything relating to freedom in your elitist and extremist rant.

    May I suggest a more accurate name?

    How about Totalitarian? Try a little truth in advertising.

  27. Freedonian Says:

    Uncle, Uncle, Uncle…

    It’s not mass murder when NO ONE GETS KILLED. I can type that more slowly if you’re having trouble following.

    Besides… Are you really trying to defend right wing gun nuts by bringing up one of the most notorious right wing gun nuts of all time? Multiply McVeigh’s body count times fifty, and you’ve got the average number of gun homicides in America in any given year.

  28. Freedonian Says:

    Oh, #9, that’s so clever…

    My name is from the Marx Brothers movie “Duck Soup”. Groucho is the president of a nation called Freedonia that he takes to war for petty, fraudulent reasons. There are certain events in this country that make me relate to the people of that nation.

    Now, since we’re talking about truth in advertising when it comes to names… Want me to suggest a few for you?

  29. Dave Says:

    I don’t believe for one minute that Wilson’s intervention in the Tyler courthouse shooting didn’t save lives. If nothing else, the perpetrator was forced to defend himself and concentrate on Wilson. Ask the people dining at Luby’s in Killeen in 1991 if they wish someone in the cafeteria had been packing heat that day.

  30. SayUncle Says:

    Yes, I’m certain if the armed guy hadn’t intervened, he’d have stopped stabbing. And I’m pretty sure any reasonable person can see that would include attempted murder.

  31. Freedonian Says:

    You ain’t gotta believe me, Dave. That’s the beautiful thing about having the facts on your side. I can back it up. Watch the video. Wilson didn’t last long enough in this fight to influence the outcome. The shooter was killed by a sharpshooter blocks away and ten minutes later.

    And Uncle— Surprise us all and think about what you’re saying for a minute, would you? He stabbed 8 people… Presumably none after the guy with the gun disarmed him, right?

    So… how many died? I’ll give you a hint— It’s less than one.

  32. SayUncle Says:

    I’ve watched the video and didn’t see Wilson in it. Perhaps you can tell me at which point he made his appearance since I may have missed it.

    how many died? Iíll give you a hintó Itís less than one.

    Yeah, because a dude with a gun stopped him.

  33. Freedonian Says:

    Iíve watched the video and didnít see Wilson in it. Perhaps you can tell me at which point he made his appearance since I may have missed it.

    You’re right/ It had been a while since I actually watched. ireviewed it, and he’s not in it, unless he’s one of the dead bodies laying in front of the courthouse.

    I had also forgotten that he was such a non-factor in ending this thing that it happened after a car chase!

    Yeah, because a dude with a gun stopped him.

    Maybe. but how many get killed when a guy goes bonkers with a knife? I’m asking you yet again. If this is so straight forward and you’re so right, why can you not answer that simple question?

  34. Pro-Gun Progressive » Guns Make It Worse? Says:

    [...] has some interesting thoughts in this regard; turns out the Armed Citizen vs. Insane Maniac record indicates that actually, in point of fact, you do want a private citizen with a gun around [...]

  35. Sebastian-PGP Says:

    Freedonian–Groucho made a lot of money making fun of people like you.

    This isn’t hard: when the bad guy was shooting at Arroyo, he wasn’t shooting at other people. Duh.

    Wilson gave his life to save others. Piss on that within earshot of me at your own risk.

    How many people get killed when people go nuts with fertilizer and a Ryder truck?

    This isn’t about guns, sweetcheeks.

  36. ben Says:

    Maybe. but how many get killed when a guy goes bonkers with a knife?

    Since you asked, here’s some answers.

    That, and Uncle is right. Your earlier assertion that a MAK-90 with 116 bullets is somehow superior to an AR-15 was dumb and showed that you do not take your bunk about research seriously.

    …while wearing legally obtained body armor to keep Wilson and the police from stopping him until a police sharpshooter gave him a tap to the head.

    A tap to the head wasn’t necessary, although it was effective. Like Uncle said, his “body armor” wouldn’t have stopped a torso shot from the AR the cop had either.

  37. Sebastian-PGP Says:

    Body armour Type IIA or better probably would stop buckshot as well, the difference being that shotguns are easier to aim and thus go for a debilitating headshot or hipshot.

    The handgun is the last resort weapon you use to fight your way back to a shoulder fired weapon. If Wilson had such a weapon available, he might still be with us.

  38. Sebastian-PGP Says:

    Just realized the mistake I made above. Should read “when the bad guy Arroyo was shooting at Wilson…”

  39. Rustmeister Says:

    Unc, you freakin’ rock!

    Freedonian, not so much.

  40. mike walther Says:

    Ben- I posted a comment to an article in my University paper here (don’t know if you guys can access it without registering.

    A girl responded to my comment stating

    ” Quite honestly, no, I would not shoot someone to save my life. So let that be a first. I understand that this is not a Utopian world and there will be violence. I understand that I could die because I refuse to answer that violence with more violence. I will claw kick and bite my way to safety, but I will never ever shoot a gun and I believe that everyone has the right to make that choice for themselves. More people die from accidental firings of guns and improper gun safety. I also think that if a gun is easily available, it will make its misuse more tempting……… Senseless violence is not always senseless to the one who kills.”

    so I guess people really have lost their sense of self-preservation. Clawing and kicking your way to safety when confronted with an armed criminal isn’t going to work. Her whole “senseless violence is not always senseless.” I wasn’t even sure what to make of it. Is she trying to justify the killers actions?

  41. geekWithA.45 Says:

    We must also remember those who stepped up to the plate and fell trying:

    Mark Allen Wilson, Tyler Texas Courthouse shootings

    Brendan McKown, Tacoma Mall Shooting

  42. Alphecca » What If? Says:

    [...] What if law abiding citizens had been allowed to conceal carry on the Virginia Tech campus? Say Uncle has examples of similar incidents. [...]

  43. Dave Says:

    I will reiterate my previous two points:

    1. Wilson’s engagement with Arroyo drew his attention away from other innocent people. Or, as Sebastian said: “This isnít hard: when the bad guy was shooting at Arroyo, he wasnít shooting at other people. Duh.”

    2. I guarantee you that the folks at the Luby’s in Killeen that fateful day in 1991 wish that someone in their midst had been armed.

  44. Random Nuclear Strikes » Self Defense Examples Says:

    [...] Uncle also put out an alert for newsstories of this nature. He and his readers were able to come up with a total of eight, including the Appalachian example, as well as Tacoma Mall hero, Dan McKown. [...]

  45. Chublogga Says:

    I’ve compiled a very similar list, with a lot of links. Looks like you’ve got a few more i’ll have to look into, though.

  46. Freedonian Says:

    Sebastian,

    FreedonianĖGroucho made a lot of money making fun of people like you.

    Actually, he was with me politically. The Iraq war looks like Dubya and co. used “Duck Soup” as a blueprint, and every time a gun made an appearance in a Marx Brothers movie, they showed what they thought of guns in stupid hands. All in all, his politics made me look like Pat Buchanan by comparison. But nice try.

    How many people get killed when people go nuts with fertilizer and a Ryder truck?

    About 2% of the people killed by guns in this nation every year. In fact, you can add OK City (Carried out by notable right wing gun nuts), both WTC attacks, and the entire wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and you still haven’t added up to the number of handgun deaths in any given year, much less guns overall. So that’s kind of a silly comment on your part.

  47. Sebastian Says:

    Yah, because we’re all potential Timothy McVeighs. Did it ever occur to those of you on the left that if we were as dangerous as you suggest we are that you’d all be dead already? Most gun owners wouldn’t hurt a fly, unless of course the fly pulled a gat on us and demanded our wallets ;)

    The fact that you can’t make arguments without insulting those who disagree with you says quite a lot. I don’t have time for folks like you.

  48. Sebastian-PGP Says:

    Freedonian–

    Actually Groucho was with me. He was quite the skeptic about authority (I see you’re presuming I’m some sort of conservative…you should probably take a wild guess at what PGP stands for).

    But good luck with trying to extrapolate anything useful about gun politics from their hilariously zany antics.

    About 2% of the people killed by guns in this nation every year.

    So why didn’t McVeigh use guns, if they’re so effective? You really are an idiot. He killed five times as many people as the worst gun massacre in our history. In one instant. Without a gun.

    You’re comparing his action against 1000s of individual incidents? I see you haven’t done much work with stats.

    In fact, you can add OK City (Carried out by notable right wing gun nuts), both WTC attacks, and the entire wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and you still havenít added up to the number of handgun deaths in any given year, much less guns overall. So thatís kind of a silly comment on your part.

    Dude, you need to drop the bong slowwwwwly back away.

    First, the “notable right wing gun nuts” didn’t use guns–that should tell you something.

    Secondly, WTC plus Afghanistan plus Iraq is well above 100K deaths (my guess is you weren’t counting non-US deaths, which isn’t surprising considering that you’re a total idiot). There are about 10-15k gun murders (all guns combined) per year.

    Medical malpractice kills 10 times as many people as murderers with guns do, but I don’t see you trying to ban med school.

    Even your hyperbole is idiotic. Why Uncle is tolerating your presence here isn’t something I’m sure about, but my guess is he’s finding our battering of your ridiculous nonsense edifying for his readers.

  49. Gov_ff Says:

    Freedonian, a mind is a terrible thing to waste! How can you expect people to believe that “About 2% of the people killed by guns in this nation every year” horsepucky you’re spewing? That would mean almost 6 MILLION gun victims annually!

    You treat every other poster here like they’re idiots but you’re only proving yourself to be one.

  50. Sebastian-PGP Says:

    FWIW…I really do like Marx Bros. movies…it’s a real bummer to have to think of a dolt like Freedonian now when I watch them.

  51. ben Says:

    Hey, nobody paid any attention to my knife stabbing rampage links. Nobody loves me and nobody cares. :(

  52. SayUncle Says:

    I did. I thought it pretty much stood on its own.

  53. ben Says:

    I was just using that as an opportunity to pull out a line from “Garfield” when he was in one of his deep blue funks. Thanks for noticing :)

  54. straightarrow Says:

    Freedonian, just wear a sign around your neck stating you will not accept rescue from people armed with guns. There! Problem solved.

    Considering that the only case you can present where the gun owners actually made a positive impact was when it was an off duty policeman, then I thank you for that. Iíve faced down the gun before. And I won. You guys really do not scare me.

    I can present several cases where a gun saved my life. I can also present two cases where not having one got me shot. Oh, and I won also, but guess what, the times my gun saved life, nobody got hurt, much less killed.

    I am not now, nor have I ever been a police officer. I have a son and a brother that are. They disagree with you. Unlike your purported readers who “laugh behind our backs”, they like myself would laugh in your face.

    Which is cruel, I know, it is not nice to ridicule the mentally deficient, but sometimes they are comical, as in your case.

  55. Sebastian-PGP Says:

    Wow, I’m agreeing with straightarrow. :)

    We must all hang together, or we will surely hang separately.

  56. Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner Says:

    Good arguments. I just wanted to state this. I don’t care what Freedonian says or does, or what legislation he, or any other freedom-crushing fascist may be able to enact. There is only ONE way to disarm me.

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    gysgt usmc ret

  58. SayUncle » Concealed carry permit numbers down Says:

    [...] In NY. Shocking! Speaking of John Lott, he has an opinion piece that runs a familiar theme about more guns and how they would prevent mass murder. I would also point out my very unscientific accounting of mass murderers stopped by armed citizens. [...]

Remember, I do this to entertain me, not you.

Uncle Pays the Bills


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