Chai Vang Round Up
Kevin has a good piece on the VPC, England and more.
Reasonable Nut on the alleged Hmong racism that may have lead to the shooting. He notes that it is odd that among 20 hunters, there was only one gun reported. If true, it shoots a rather sizable hole in the claim that the dead folks shot first, if you ask me.
The Journal Sentinel doesn’t know much about guns or deer killing:
Some will immediately raise the issue of gun control. The SKS 7.62mm semiautomatic assault weapon, the kind of rifle Vang was carrying, is ill-suited for hunting deer. It is apparently too underpowered to kill a deer with a single shot, the goal of hunters who want to avoid needless suffering.
The 7.62 is adequate for deer hunting.
Former President Clinton, by executive order, barred SKS rifles manufactured in China and Russia. The Bush administration, according to a national gun control group, has specifically allowed their importation from some other countries.
Actually, that would Bush 1 and not Clinton.
Should they be banned by executive order altogether?
Actually, I’m still trying to figure out where executive order authorized the president to do anything, much less ban the importation of something. I thought Congress regulated commerce. Meanwhile, the VPC is calling on the president to ban all gun SKS imports.
Apparently, there have been other incidents in the past of Hmong hunting on private property without permission:
Hunters have complained the Hmong do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they want. The tension once led to a fistfight in Minnesota.
The Brady Camp and JoinTogether continue to dance in the blood of dead people. In the event that it turns out that Vang was actually attacked and defended himself (unlikely, since police are reporting he hunted down the other hunters), would that change the Brady statement?
Update: Shooting another hole in the self-defense angle:
Vang said he continued firing as the group scattered, and at one point chased one of the hunters and shot him in the back, only to find the man had no gun, the document states.
It’s not defense if you chase them down and shoot them in the back.
November 29th, 2004 at 1:25 pm
[...] ike the SKS was not the rifle used in this incident. Judging from the comments section of this post and the recent spike in traffic for folks Googling up Chai Vang, peopl [...]
December 1st, 2004 at 1:31 pm
[...] e=”4274″>
Locals on Chai Vang
|By SayUncle|
In a record for me, the comments to this post are out of control and that’s considering that I’ve deleted [...]
December 1st, 2004 at 1:31 pm
[...] about 15 of them for some generally offensive comments. I may have to shut them down. A comment there provides more information on the Chai Vang incident t [...]
November 24th, 2004 at 10:10 am
I used to be pretty fluent in Lao. So perhaps I can go up there and explain to them what private property is…
Assuming the Hmong dialect isn’t too far removed from the norm
November 24th, 2004 at 11:18 am
So…let me get this straight. The SKS is a deadly assault weapon designed only to kill as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, but it’s ill-suited for hunting deer?
November 24th, 2004 at 2:59 pm
That sounds about right. For deer you want a higher caliber.
November 25th, 2004 at 3:16 am
Except it is suitable for deer, being quite comparable to the venerable 30-30. Remington’s ballistic tables show the 30-30 starting with more energy, but by 200 yards they’re virtually identical (which implies that the 7.62×39 has a flatter trajectory, and it does.)
November 26th, 2004 at 4:37 pm
We own 400+ acres in SE Minnesota and we have the SAME problem. Hmongs truly do not understand private property and walk all over your land. I can’t tell you all how many times we’ve seen them on our land and littering (it’s theirs! it’s their native language on the garbage). It pisses us off of course, but thankfully nothing drastic has happened.
November 26th, 2004 at 5:49 pm
As a Hmong person myself, I wouldn’t defend Chai for his action. Although the dead person shot first, he had no rights whatsoever to be in private property. Not only that, he threaten to kill his own family a couple years before this incident.
November 26th, 2004 at 6:19 pm
Well was there signs there posted No Trespassing. If there was signs there it would be Chai’s fault. If he was trespassing why didn’t they call Wisconsin DNR and let them handle it. Why do they have to take things in there own hand without knowing a person’s background. He was in the Army National Gaurd. This is a train individual that knows how to shoot and is combat ready. I know there’s a lot of racist people out in Wisconsin. Like a year or two ago when them white folks burn down a hmong house down filled with children in Wisconsin. Where was the media’s attention. I am not racist, but I’m just speaking out the truth. I know many people besides hmong people trespass on private property too. If your lost your lost what can you do. I am a Vang too, but not related in anyway to Chai. Goodluck to both families. May we all pray that good things will happen in the future.
November 26th, 2004 at 7:35 pm
Ok lets put ourselves in Vangs shoe’s. If we were lost out in the woods, and found a stand we would try and navigate our way out of the woods. In order to do this we will have to find the highest spot in order to find our way out. If somebody was to confront me and start to call me racist names, and being racist to me, and evan shoot at me while I’m lost. Well your looking for trouble. Buddy, you just dug yourself a grave. If I am combat trained too, I will used my skills to get me out there alive and unharmed. Wouldn’t you? Or would you just keep on walking off until they actually find you and kill you. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. The media is talking to much trash that’s is certainly untrue. Let’s wait and see what happen’s. Don’t escalate the problems in our society, and if you don’t know much about a situation don’t critisize that you really do…………………..
November 27th, 2004 at 8:14 am
duh
November 27th, 2004 at 8:23 am
The thing is im not a Vang and for that matter im not hmong. Point is Hmong, white, black, or purple its just commons sense. When someone trespasses on your property you call the local authorities and have them deal with it, thats waht they are there for. You walk up to a little asian man who is combat trained and make racial slurs and shoot at him hes going to shoot back. Who the hell wouldnt! I think any man white or hmong would shoot back and defend himself if he was shot at and capable of defending his own life? i bet they crucify Vang becasue that small town with its small town politics is racist. And one of the only ways to appease the public of that area will be to crucify Vang. We seem to live in a semi civilized and fair society with decent fair laws. I guess the only problem is those laws are only applicable if your white and the local authorities are white and want you to prevail. Bottom line they intended to hurt Vang I dont see any reason why they would surround him and call him racial names and shoot at him. If they had kindly asked Vang to leave and he started to shoot them all down now thats a different story. Bottom line if Vang goes to jail you really have to ask yourself does the justice system in our country only apply to the white man. Or is Vang just another casualty of that towns bloodlust and hate for minorities.
November 27th, 2004 at 11:00 am
Easy now. The racial slurs are part of Vang’s story. Although it may have escalated to name calling, that is yet to be proven. I live less than 30 miles from where the incident happened and I take exception to Victor’s backwoods justice theory. Although our area is predominately white, I think we are very accepting of all races. We have had many Saudis go to our University in Rice Lake, we have a large Somalian population in another neighboring city. Through the years we have had many blacks in our communities and I can’t tell you of one racial incident involving any of them. During the summers we have a large population of Hispanics who work in our agricultural industries. So please, climb down from your racist pulpit.
And if anyone is thinking there may have been a language barrier, I talked to the State Trooper that transported Vang and that person said his English was fluent.
Here’s one for you to gnaw on. Vang applied for his Wisconsin hunting license using his California I.D. He hasn’t lived in California for more than 4 years. He’s a truck driver right? So he must have a valid Minnesota driver’s license. Why wouldn’t he use that to procure a hunting license in his neighboring state?
Maybe it’s because he didn’t want to raise any flags about a warrant that is out on him (since 2002) because he didn’t pay his fine in Green Lake County (also in Wisconsin).
What was that fine for you ask? TRESSPASSING!
November 27th, 2004 at 2:31 pm
hmmmmmmmmmmm. A hunting group of 20 peoples. And only one of them had a gun. Where is the rest of the guns for the hunting group. Your telling me that only 1 out of the whole hunting group had a gun. It does not add up. Chai was ambush wouldn’t you think. So he shot hisself out of the woods and the authorities apprehended him. I know that there is plenty of skin heads out there in Wisconsin. I’ve experience discrimination in Wisconsin before especially in those small towns. The truth shall set us free. Good luck Chai.
November 27th, 2004 at 7:14 pm
Hello world. I am Hmong. Not only that, I am an American. The actions of Chai Vang were uncalled for, but who’s to say that he killed them out of only anger and hate. Them f*cks had to have f*cked with Mr. Chai Vang 1st. Seriously! The media and those who don’t know (the ignorant) do not have any idea of what REALLY happened at the scene!!! The only ones who know are the ones involved, meaning the victims and Chai himself. So who’s next on the list of “the informed” about this incident? THE IMMEDIATE AUTHORITIES.. The local sheriffs whom roam around town. The guys whom everybody in the local area probably know by 1st name. What I am addressing here is the issue of “cover-up”. The investigation better go equally both ways. The sentence for Chai Vang better be fair. This is an example of the great f*cking United States of America not knowing what the f*ck to do when sh*t happens. Think hard about it. One man with his word versus an entire community who ASSUME what happened just outside of their peaceful town. One man with his word versus an entire community who may seem alarmed at the site of a short man of asian descent. (Believe me, I’ve travelled through those towns before. It’s not that the majority of them folks are racist, but it is only natural for them to raise a flag in their heads when they see something UNUSUAL.)One man with his word versus a community that will only want to believe what they want to believe (whether it be truth or not). I hope justice in this county of Wisconsin will work by its own definition. I wouldn’t be surprised it didn’t either.
I am a Coloradoan hunter. I hunt everything from big game to small game to waterfowl and I am even an avid fisherman during the warmer parts of the year. I totally understand the fact that many hmong outdoorsmen do not understand a lot of rules and regulations of hunting and fishing. I myself even keep my distance. I grew up here in the country, I’ve become accustomed to both cultures and I am fluent in both the English language and the Hmong language. When I go duck hunting, I especially keep away from hunters who sky-bust and yes, a lot of times those who do skybust, are Hmong folks. Don’t get me wrong though, just because I keep a good 50 yards away from a group of Hmong fisherman to avoid getting my lines tangled doesn’t mean I don’t love em. And if ANYBODY, I mean ANYBODY would come to these folks and start b*tching with racial slurrs and name calling and harassment. I aint gonna sit there and let it happen. I aint no trained marines, combat ready, hardcore, guerrilla warfare scarred man like Mr. Chai Vang, but I tell ya, like everyone out there in the right mind, I’ve got heart. And my heart breaks for nobody. If my people are being tormented and harassed in front of my eyes, that is breaking my heart. I won’t let it happen. I put my word on that.
Chai Vang kept his cool long enough, I see why he fired so many rounds. I see why he killed them all. 1st off, they fired at him! At least that is his story. But why the f*ck would his story be any less true than the victims’ story? Or the sheriff’s? Why the f*ck did the media make like it was all him before the investigation even started? God forbid this happens, but if I was in the woods and someone fired in my direction, especially if there were already an exchange of verbal tension between me and that person, I’d fire back too.. Not to scare the motherf*cker, but to make sure I disable the threat. Completely. Take no chances. And then discuss the problem afterwards with the authorities. I’ll post my personal occurances and y’all can try to picture what I saw and ponder upon what kind of racism IS STILL EXISTING OUT THERE (especially out in rural areas).
November 27th, 2004 at 9:23 pm
Bonny Reservoir, Burlington Colorado right near the Colo/Kansas border: An oasis on the eastern plains of Colorado which is quite popular as a warm water fisherie. I remember the days when my father and I used to drive out and fish there every weekend. As the years went by (by the way, this was in the mid 90′s) we saw an increasing amount of Hmong, Lao and Cambodian fisherman, chasing crappie, wiper, whitebass and walleye which are among the favorites of southeast Asians when it comes to the dinner table. So here’s what I saw, when I was about eleven years old I recall seeing a redneck motherf*cker(yes I just said that)walk up to an old hmong dude and cut his fishing line. The caucasian man explained that they were in his spot which he has fished over the however many years (remember, this is public land). He demanded the old Hmong guy to leave, but the old Hmong dude couldn’t even speak English!! The elderly Hmong man just sat there staring at the redneck while the redneck cut his line and walked away in disgust. Another time at Bonny: My father, some of his fishing buddies and I were at the western end of the damn night fishing. We had the lanterns going and everything. Quiet night….. Until we heard “Gouk this, Chink that, F*ck this, F*ck that from the top of the dam”…… and rocks being thrown at us. Another party of Hmong fishermen were sitting right beside us. I aint even gonna explain what we did to make em’ leave us alone, but I tell ya it worked. No one was hurt, but the opposing party was probably sh*tting bricks. They had to have been drinking cause beer cans were thrown as well. I’ve had a time while deer hunting out near Kremmling where we parked on a ridge (on public property) on the side of a dirtroad when suddenly, a hunter popped out from the bushes yellin’ racial slurrs at us, saying that we were contaminating the area and ruining his hunt…. We were glassing the at the side of the mountain on the other side of the valley. This guy was less than 100 from the road. My father just ignored and we left quietly. I’ve had an uncle who got in an argument over a goose at Lonetree Reservoir (over a goose). The man who argued with him used racial slurrs too, according to my uncle, and then took a shot to a dirt mound about a few yards away from his foot to the side. He never reported this happening, but instead just never returned to that lake. These stories are not uncommon. I’m just fortunate enough to have only so far, run into the nicer folks while out in the woods. I too, have accidentally roamed off of public into private property. I was escorted out by a the landowner. Lucky me, this dude was cool about it.. We use CB’s on the road to our hunting locations to chit chat and keep eachother up… Hearing countryside truck drivers and other non-Hmong hunters talking nonsense to us through the CB’s is a norm. Hear it all the time! “Go back to your country”, “F*cking Gouks”, “Chinks”, hearing them discuss with eachother about how there are so many of us and what they should do to rid of us. I dunno…. Not much people won’t believe it because they haven’t seen it. Its not something terrible for me cause I get along fairly well with other hunters here in Colorado only because we have common ground, no language barrier, and the same ethics….. But for the hunters who don’t, such as my fellow Hmong hunters, they need to learn, but they shouldn’t be discriminated on either… Cause that would just be wrong. Those who decide that they have a reason to discriminate, hate, harass and get away with it…. Are dead wrong. That’s my point of view. I wish the best to all parties involved in this incident. I also wish for a fair trial for Mr. Chai Vang.
November 27th, 2004 at 9:47 pm
words, racism, and bulletts all go both ways… some hurt more than others. rule one, don’t approach anyone with a loaded gun in thier hand. rule two, don’t insult anyone with a loaded gun in thier hand.
November 28th, 2004 at 1:02 am
Logic dictates that unless Van has a serious history of violent mental illness he is not going to gun down 8 people unless properly provoked and he felt his life was threatened. I just dont see it. The media and that small white town can say what they want. Actions speak louder then words and to appease the general public it is fact that the media portrayed the story of Vangs horrid shootdown of the white men as so, there was no doubt it was not self defense it was just a given Vang committed cold blooded brutal murder. Which is exactly what i mean they portrayed the incident exactly how they knew the public in that area would like it portrayed…with Vang cruicified as the devil himself. And so will be his trial. And if his trial does go as so, there is no doubt in my mind that any man of asian decent will never get a fair trial in Winconsin. If the crime is supposedly performed on a white man and its his word agaisnt an asians i guess your just out of luck. And then you have to ask yourself what does the justice system in America really stand for if this trial goes as so, and exactly what nationalty do you have to be to fully have the laws of the USA apply to you. This trial started ridicullous from the start. If Vang is found guilty because in court the white jury beleives the white mans word over Vangs, I can say with my greatest conviction this trial was more “political” then fair or in any way just. Vangs story is seen as bullshiet before a discovery progress is even implemented, and the media itself portrayed it as so. That small town should be ashamed of itself. I am not a racist and i am from an area where racism is generally not considered a predominant problem, in my area racism does not show its ugli face very often to the public, but logic dictates that when you have media, local Law enforcement, the community as a whole, “ALL CONDEMN A MAN” before a proper thorough investigiation is exectuted and findings are evaluated, then you have a racist community. The Minorites will be watching this trial I hope the USA knows minorites make up a large population of our general public, And we should all be appeased this is also our country and many of us have gone to war defending it. It is only fair that we fight and die for our country as if it were our own, it is our own! We should be seen equally and justice should be served with a blind eye to our race or color, we are Americans and i pray justice prevails. I am truly sorry for the families that lost loved ones from this horrible tragedy, but sentencing a man to his death to satisfy your own bloodlust and the local authorities allowing this to happen, that is not what i was raised to beleive is American Justice! Maybe some of us shoudl re-read “To Kill a Mockingbird”. I pray for the sake of general Moral among the asian commuintiy that Mr. Vang is given a fair a trial. God bless you…
November 28th, 2004 at 7:52 am
Jeffrey Harris your probably the same type of man that Chai Vang had to shoot to prevent himself from being killed. Your comment validates my point. Thank you…
November 28th, 2004 at 7:53 am
and do us all a favor and get a spell check MR. Harris
November 28th, 2004 at 7:54 am
This trial will determine alot for our country
November 28th, 2004 at 4:08 pm
i’m a hmong college student and with this news i was not surprise at all. how many months has it been since the last racist crime? let me turn the whole disaster around and let the 8 guys be asians and the victim be a white guy with a SKS 7.62mm semiautomatic, lost, and wandering when he’ll ever find his way out of the woods and also trained with weapons skills. and let’s say this lost white guy is probably not in a good mood. now let’s get to the point.
this white guy is lost and would he stop and think twice about climbing up the stand to see where is he and get on the road again or wander around and hope to find another stand somewhere soon and then climb up to see where he is. it is not just hmongs or asians that get into private properties. unusal things are in people’s memories longer. when someone is lost all they want to do is find their way out. now back to the point. a hmong hunter saw this lost white guy on their stand and radioed his other buddies to come. they walked up and surround the lost white guy and not bothering to ask if he is lost or what his problem is and why he is up on their stand and just start calling names…”FAHKEN WHITE AXX!!!!…GET THE FAHK OUT OF HERE, YOU REDNECK TRASH!!!!” and a shot from your buddy was made, and he flinched and can’t really do anything even though he is much bigger and taller or he’ll return home with a different face. he walked away with all the stored names callings, threats, and the gun shot made by the group of hmong hunters in the back of his head and flowing in his blood. will this trained white guy walked away looking like a loser when names and threats made about him or his people were made? i’m sure if this lost white guy is in southeast asia he would be looked at and hear name callings from the majority group. so with the 8 asian guys surrounding him and the most of all which I think will really turn the lost white guy mad is the gun shot; what would this white guy be thinking? something similar like this i’m sure…HELL,I AIN’T GUNNA LET THESE FAHKEN ASIANS GOOKS SCARE ME. BYTCH AXX CHINKS AND SHORT MOTHERSFAHKERS!! I’LL SHOW YOU WHAT I GOT…turned around and gun shots: pop-pop-pop!!!
if there were no threats and the gun shot, chai will need a lot of courage to try to kill them all for telling him to get down from their stand. this is a crime that is to teach the american people that racism is still out there and you guys are to look at both sides for who’s right or wrong if you claim your country is the world power with the best politics sytems. don’t claim it if you can’t even solve your country’s internal problems. most racism are still in many small towns. though there are some group of people living near or in a small town it does not mean that racism is not a problem. like the gentle man mentioned above, if an unusual man or woman walked down the streets of a small town he or she will see the eyes. it is human natural to observe unusual things around them.
in closing, my point is to release my opinion that if you are looking for problems or trying to be cool, you’re just digging yourself a grave. it doesn’t matters how big or tall you are or how many buddies you have. even a skinny 10 year old boy who is able to think for himself has a limit. with a semiautomatic in his hand he can kill you and all your friends if you threat him, calls him names, and shot your gun to scare him. everybody has a limit of “can’t take it no more”, and that’s when “i’ll show you who i am” comes into play. my father was talking about his news and i told him “dad, that asian guy is a human beings too and those white guys did not have to surround him like they want to beat him up, calls him names, and then shoot their gun to scare him, if they weren’t digging their 6 ft grave and just ask him to get on his way or offer to direct him his way out then nobody has to die” what’s so hard about telling a person to not hunt on private land or direct him back to the road; if it’s too hard and taking matters to your own hands then hope that you will return home alive. If you play with the wrong people in the wrong mood then take the pain and pray for good things to happen.
November 28th, 2004 at 6:11 pm
This is a very intelligent and cogent discussion. I’m from Southeast Asia, Thailand, to be specific. I run my own blog where I posted some entries questioning the sheriff’s and some residents’ contentions that there was NO WAY that race could have been a factor in this shooting. These statements were made the day of the shooting. I thought that such an offhand and sweeping dismissal of race as a cause was a disservice to truth-seeking and a slight to the Hmong community. That is, given that incidents of white hunters threatening Hmong hunters in the past are not uncommon, it would be rash to dismiss race tensions as a trigger in this case. Naturally, I got a slew of “go back to SE Asia” and “go F your mother” comments, despite including words in my posts that the shootings were unjustifiable, tragic and cold-blooded. What also seemed to inflame these readers was that I stated that I had a “gut feeling” that Vang was taunted and berated before he shot. This I wrote before Vang’s account came out in the press. Living as a person of color in the US, you can pretty much sense when a given situation involved a hateful exchange. The fact that Vang said he was taunted and cursed was not a shock to me.
I think that the self-defense argument would be somewhat viable if he had not shot people in the back and hunted down the entire party. To me, the fact that there was only one gun is of little relevance. Subjectively, I don’t think that we can place a duty on Vang (having already been shot at) to determine from 50 yards away how many guns were actually present. If he was indeed shot at first, all he knows is that there is at least one gun out there and that someone is trying to put a bullet in him. I think that a presumption that a group out in the woods to hunt has multiple weapons is not unreasonable, assuming Vang is speaking truthfully. I also think that this case would get an ‘automatic’ venue change. It would truly surprise me if this case was not moved to another jurisdiction.
In short, the events are horrifically tragic. Taunts and insults from the white hunters do not justify eight shootings and six killings (although they might reduce 1st degree murder to 2d degree murder). My take is that Vang was probably taunted and perhaps shot at for kicks, but that he simply went ape-shite on everyone. I still say it’s unjustifiable, but not entirely unexpected.
One last tangential point—Hmong is its own distinct language and not a dialect of proper Lao, which is related to Thai, especially the Northeastern Thai dialect.
November 28th, 2004 at 10:57 pm
Racism goes in two directions, and the incendiary comments on this site are proof of that. Racism is a regrettable and unfortunate thing; worse than that. However, it is NOT justification for homicide. Racial slurs are hateful but so are the non racial things people of the same race say to each other when they’re angry. These things are not a justification for homicide, and certainly not justification to gun down 6 people.
November 29th, 2004 at 12:26 am
It seems some of the people here have no idea of the concept of the tree stand. Most tree stands are less then 15 feet off of the ground. That tree stand will not serve as an aid to climb it to see where you are and where you are going.
Also someone mentioned that he did not have a past mental history – well there has to be a first time. And it looks like this may have been his first large episode.
I do not have any problems with the Hmongs and work with several Hmongs. But they have to learn or be taught the rules and laws if they are going to hunt.
November 29th, 2004 at 1:04 am
What the heck is a Hmong? Sounds like some kind of damn bug. Anyway, he killed a large number of unrelated people. It is terribly unlikely that all those people had anything to do with a consipiracy to kill. To Mr. Vang’s fellow countrymen – watch out. You are outnumbered, and we’re watching you. The trust has been broken.
November 29th, 2004 at 1:15 am
By the way – people don’t stare up into tree stands when they’re out hunting, or in their cabin. Somebody would likely need to be sitting in a tree stand for a while in order to be noticed. If one was looking to find his way out of the woods, he wouldn’t need to sit in a tree stand for any length of time.
There is a reason so many Asians want to come here – because their home countries don’t have opportunities. Why don’t those countries have opportuninties? Usually because they’re run by backwards morons, who are backed by an entire society of like-minded, back-stabbing, corrupt individuals. I say, bring your hard work and ambition, learn OUR ways, and live like US. If immigrants continue to try to change our society, they’ll ruin much of what they came to enjoy. The only other reason immigrants might act the way they do is to plunder – in which case, there will not be trust.
November 29th, 2004 at 9:00 am
Chris sorry to sound uncilvilized but you sound like a red neck hick idiot. You moron at one time every person in america was a foreigner dipshiet! Unless you are native american you are not indigenous to this country. You are the empitome of why i beleive Mr. Vang went ape shiet and shot all those white people. I am not Asian but with people like you around Chris its no wonder asians would take the law into their own hands. Im not saying what Chai Vang did was right but after hearing comments liek yours ie-”What the heck is a Hmong? Sounds like some kind of damn bug. Anyway, he killed a large number of unrelated people. It is terribly unlikely that all those people had anything to do with a consipiracy to kill. To Mr. Vang’s fellow countrymen – watch out. You are outnumbered, and we’re watching you”. You will probably be the next dumbass to go off picking on a little asian and get your shiet shot off. In conclusion get off your high horse you inbred idiot. We all came to this country, ever last one of our nationalities Itallion, Irish, Spanish looking for greater opporunities and a better quality of living. Just some of us have been here longer then others. People like you Chris i have no comment…
November 29th, 2004 at 12:58 pm
i’m also hmong and it’s quite common with all the hunting stories that i’ve heard from several hunters… them whites can be so mean! but yeah, if the table’s turn, i bet it wouldn’t get a bigger attention than this! why? because let’s face it, we DO live in a racist world! i just hope chai gets a fair trial! May God bless him!
November 29th, 2004 at 2:38 pm
Many of you may have never experienced racism in your life for you are the lucky ones. As for people who has, the majority of us have turned the other cheek hundreds of times. It’s only a matter of time before one’s patients runs out.
November 29th, 2004 at 2:39 pm
Hello everyone! I see a lot of opinions here and I thought I would leave mine. First off, I apoligize if I offend anyone but here goes…
I hope God does not bless him as Pamela suggested. You do not kill 6 people over a tree stand. (A STUPID TREE STAND, thought I’d say it again.) Perhaps the tree stand isn’t the issue though… my mistake and I will clarify below. Anyone in this situation would be demonized I believe. Race isn’t an issue but unfortnately it is drawing attention to the issue.
Secondly, Chai was trespassing. If confronted when you are trespassing you immediately do the following if you’re anyway a half-way decent and educated person. First you apologize. Secondly, if you have a firearm on you, you unload it completely (yes, even the rounds in the magazine!). Lastly you apologize again and you leave. On the other hand, if you do not own the land and you see someone trespassing, you do not confront them unless they are doing something very illegal. You contact the proper authority and they deal with it.
Obviously we do not know who shot first or what was said either way. I have heard different accounts myself and am eagerly awaiting some version of the truth. If the large group of hunters shot first Vang is still not justified in my opinion. Ask yourself this, are a bunch of hunters going to murder someone in this incident? NO FREAKING WAY! Even if they are “rednecks”. Maybe they did shoot at him, but they did not shoot him (yes, the real issue). Just because someone shoots at you, unless you are a proper authority, you do not have the right to turn and open fire on a group of people. You run and you contact the proper authorities. If you are continually fired upon, then yes, feel free to defend yourself. Vang was a soldier, he should be able to tell who is firing at him and deal with it. He should not shoot 8 people or shoot anyone in the back as they run.
Lastly, Victor, I liked your post the most as well as most of the others. This is an unfortunate and tragic mistake by everyone involved. And lastly, a lot of people ruin the outdoors for everyone, not just Hmong or other “asians”.
November 29th, 2004 at 3:29 pm
to: Comment by Victor Pallone — November 29, 2004 @ 9:00 am
i stand by your comment to chris. this is a case that can involve anybody. and look because chai vang happened to be a hmong, a racist freak like chris who don’t even bother to look up the word “hmong” on yahoo is already assuming. don’t jump to conclusion when the truth of the event isn’t revealed yet. one thing the u.s. governments should have told you is that the hmong people had stand by the u.s.’s side in the secret war and saved many of your brothers back in the vietnam conflict.
yes, we know that we’re outnumbered here in the u.s. we know that people like you are watching every step that we take; that is why people like try to wipe out he natives, enslaved the blacks and now look at you…no different than those back in the days. what is that we don’t have that made us so different from you? i’m sure we all have the right body parts to function, don’t you think?. note that I, myself, as well have the power to take your life. it is not a threat but what i’m saying is that if you’re not welling to learn to face the fact that this is not an all american country now then god bless you and hope for good things to happen.
November 29th, 2004 at 3:42 pm
It has been very interesting to read all of the comments on here. I have been following this story very closely because hunting is something I love and have always loved and being from Virginia, hunting is a huge part of many of our lives. First off, to defend the position of the victims, if Vang was in a tree stand..and he knew he was in the wrong…why didn’t he come down first?? Or did he?? If I was on someone else’s land..and obviously he knew he was, and I saw other hunters, I would immidiately come down and explain myself. Vang had no intentions of explaining himself. He thought he could hunt there and get by with it. Secondly, I have hunted for 35 years and have NEVER seen someone take an assault weapon into the woods to hunt deer. What is the sport in that?? That gun is made to kill..made for war…made for the bloodshed of men. And that’s just what it was used for here. If only one man had a gun…then didn’t Vang notice this?? Why did he chase the others down and kill them?? The only obvious answer to that is to eliminate all witnesses. I don’t know how bad the racism problem is in Wisconsin. But here in VA…we don’t have that bad of a problem. And this is the South!!!! Hopefully justice will prevail here and this man will have his life taken away the same way he took the lives of others. Blood for blood. My thoughts and prayers are with the families of all the victims.
November 29th, 2004 at 3:54 pm
Josh, the SKS is not an assault weapon.
November 29th, 2004 at 4:14 pm
Nicely said Uncle. Besides any rifle used for deer hunting can just as easily kill a person or 6.
November 29th, 2004 at 5:51 pm
I’ve been reading all these comments but I doubt that anyone here is right. You can’t say that Chai Vang didn’t do the right thing. Who really knows. I can’t see why one guys trying to take on 6. He is clearly out number. The only reason he would go ape is that they must really pissed him off. I believe Chai Vang story a lot more than the others. I just can’t believe that they asked him nicely to leave and he just start shooting. It just doesn’t make sense. I can’t believe that the paper would make a sweeping statement that there is no racist involve.
November 29th, 2004 at 6:54 pm
Here is what was reported as by Chai Vang in an article that was posted. 3 hunters confronted him, only one had a rifle/gun. Words were exchanged and racial slurs were used. Vang claims he was lost and did not know he was hunting on private property. As Vang was walking away, the guy with gun fired a shot in his general direction. Vang admitted he knew the bullet was not even close to hitting him but he then removed his scope (for close ranged shooting purposes) turned and shot the shooter twice anyway. A radio call went out and other hunters showed up, some armed, some not. Vang admits to removing his blaze orange required for deer hunting and then engaging hunters as they showed up. He admits to targetting people w/o firearms and did not want to engage people who were armed as he wanted to avoid the possibility of people firing back. As he fled he disposed of his remaining ammunition as he did not want to shoot anyone else. Whether the article is accurate or not, I cannot say for sure but this is reportedly what Chai Vang says what happened.
November 29th, 2004 at 7:05 pm
Here is a link to the probable cause statement. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/10255877.htm
November 29th, 2004 at 7:38 pm
Guys, it’s just a deer hunt. I think this deer can cook, talk, and evan clean the house, which cost the life of 6 people and evan 1 in prison. Why don’t we all look at our selfish sides and see how really foolish human beings are sometimes. I thought that the hunt was to hunt deer, not humans being gizz. Why should you point a gun at something, if you didn’t intend to shoot it in the first place. Didn’t we all learn that in the Hunting Education Course in order to purchase a hunting license? This is rediculous. Bottome line, Im not for anybody, but what is done is done. Putting Mr. Vang in prison won’t bring them back to life, nor Letting Mr. Vang off still won’t bring them back. This case is all about a stupid deer hunt, hope that the deer is really worth it? If both parties would of walk away peacefully, I guess we wouldn’t have this problem. Can we all just get along and let the court system do there job and see what happens. This case, is a case where there are no losers or winners. And for your racist people, this is the 21st century, learn to grow up would you. Those are the kind of consiquences that you might have to pay with your selfish acts.
November 29th, 2004 at 8:50 pm
This incident has nothing to do with race. Vang is an ignorant psyco who doesn’t have a clue about life. He over-reacted and does not know his limits. He murdered all of those victims and will pay by losing his own freedom. Period. You can shoot at me and I am going to comply with what ever you are complaining about. I am going to try and co-operate so as to avoid a bigger problem, not incite one. I know the difference. This is what separates the men from the animals. Vang was paranoid and lost controll, he bacame an animal. Most people with common sense in this country know better. We do not go around killing people. Get a grip people, this is not the “Old Country”. I will not murder you.
November 29th, 2004 at 9:36 pm
if he was lost , why was he sitting in a treestand when he was discovered? why did he turn his blaze orange jacket inside out to be in camoflage and the start shooting? why did he take the scope off of the rifle before he began shooting ? there are too many unanswered questions to say who is at fault YET
November 29th, 2004 at 10:51 pm
My family was one of the first Hmong families living in the Fox cities of WI, and I can tell you, racism against the Hmong community exists. Just some of my own experiences trick or treating as a child and my fellow god-fearing, compassionate neighbors turning off their lights as my sisters and brother and I approached their homes, me at 8 yrs old confronted by a group of teenagers spitting and yelling at me to go back to my country, my brother beaten up, being called a gook more than I can remember, bricks thrown at my house, vandalism, and so on and so on. I’m not even going to go into what my parents and friends have gone through. In regard to the hunting community, my father-in-law who is Hmong, is a card-carrying NRA member, Bush supporter and avid deer hunter who has always encountered racism year after year after year. His sons have been spat at, harassed, and had their tires slashed. The one good thing out of this horrible and unfortunate incident is that it opens a door for discourse! Which is badly needed here in WI concerning the Hmong and the community as a whole. I am not going to go into who did what or who didn’t do what because the reality is even if the truth comes out, people will believe what they want to believe. We can only try to understand why this incident has stirred up so much emotion, animosity, etc. and hope to point out the ignorance (Chris) that exists to further events such as these. To learn more about the Hmong, their role in the secret war with the CIA against communism, and their resulting politcial asylum status in the US and abroad, check this website out:
http://www.time.com/time/asia/photoessays/laos/
November 29th, 2004 at 11:23 pm
Too many thing dont add up:
You DO NOT shoot unarmed men
You DO NOT hutn them down (even if they shot at you , and called you names)
You DO NOT try to get a ride ASAP, back to yuor house before calling the police
You DO NOT go into a tree stand to try and navigate, the branches/leafs only block vision more.
You DO NOT take off your scope preparing for a shoot out. That proves intent.
You DO NOT unload a FULL 20 round modified magizine into 8 guys, without intent to kill, EVEN IN DEFENSE
The guy who he tried to get a ride with should be thanking his lucky stars that Vang didnt have any ammo left, because I bet Vang would have shot him too, when he refused to take him.
November 29th, 2004 at 11:28 pm
If events were different and Mr.Vang was killed while walking away, would there be this much media coverage? This would have been a small blurb in the back of the daily papers. In light of the quick judgement of the sheriff and community this might even be justified as self defense if it was the other way around .ie. it was a retired white national guardsmen trained as a sniper approached by a group of colored men in the woods. Regardless, this was a tragic event. However it should not surprise anyone who is aware of previous incidents and the long animosity that tight-knit communities have towards outsiders of any kind. It’s just that these previous incidents did not make it to the press.
November 29th, 2004 at 11:53 pm
Jeff well said! Reports say that only one person came upon him first he then raidoed back to camp to see if anyone had let him hunt there. Then 3 more people came after being shot at more then came so it’s not like they were all after him! Terry was the only one with a gun because he was still out hunting the rest were at the cabin, they didn’t know they would be shot at why would they bring a gun. And no its wasn’t that he was in the tree stand it was that he was trespassing, it’s there land they can tell him to leave. And they were going to report that he was trespassing, but you have to get to a phone first and most cabins in that area don’t have phones and cell phones don’t work in that area! And if he was lost why be in the tree stand? Sure look and see what you can see but for 15 min? get your ass down and start back tracking! I was lost in the woods when I was 5 and I found my way out! You don’t run down people and shoot them in the back Joey was shot 4 times in the back. And you know he was running to save is life, Isn’t that what you would think of first? And even if any of them were running back to get guns Vang could have ran and been gone by the time they got back! And why shoot at the people with no guns and run when people came that did have them.. He killed them in cold blood! Even if they did say hurtfull things to him you dont kill them for it! If the was the case lots of people would be dead!!!
November 30th, 2004 at 12:32 am
“What the heck is a Hmong? Sounds like some kind of damn bug” Comment by Chris — November 29, 2004 @ 1:04 am
i am very surprised that most of you are civil in this website, but okay, i have to submit this, i don’t know if that chris guy is going to come back or not, but i got very offeneded, i bet if you ever came to talk to one of us, you would be intimidated, and to my fellow hmong people ^_^ good come backs, and pride. And also to the others that dont discriminate us, thanks and great comments. this is a crime, but is this our business? do we need to be gossiping about it? maybe you’re not hmong, and are against us, but remember being white doesnt mean that you are more dominant than us, i am not racist, but i’m only saying this to those who are. remember that we’re all AMERICANS, and if you think you’re white and you have white pride, well, that great! but remember, you came from an origin too, so i do not see any of you guys different from me and what ever you can achieve, i can too. not just white, but every color out there. i dont mean to direct this to caucasians, but to everyone. first of all like i said, that comment offended me. but if you put yourself in my shoes, you wouldnt be happy that people are discriminating your people for one person’s doing. dont discriminate anyone, dont be immature about it and think childish of our races. and now i’m really thinking about how when the iraqis felt when those people discriminated them. okay, first of all, if theres any new people looking at this, what is hmong? its a language, a group of people, a nationality, a forgotten allie of the united states. you wonder what i’m talking about? during the vietnam war, the hmong help lead the americans through the jungles of laos and hmong, do we sound like a damn bug? so if we do, do you acuse the other asian nationalities to sound like bugs too? all the hmong people arent like chai, and chai, he had his own reasons. this is a disgrace to the hmong people, and we already feel ashamed, very ashamed that someone would do that, but it doesnt mean we’re all like that. this crime is more directed to him because he is a man of color, a hmong person.
November 30th, 2004 at 12:34 am
!!!READ THE ABOVE!!! AND BELOW!!!
November 30th, 2004 at 12:37 am
i dont mean to offend anyone really, but if you got something to say to me, just go ahead, and i apologize, but if you want to discriminate and say shit to me, thank you, i am honored! i dont care-
from CoLoRaDo!
November 30th, 2004 at 12:55 am
Dana, your anger and grief is understandable. However, its easy to lack projection in situations like these. One thing that came to mind when you wrote “And why shoot at the people with no guns and run when people came that did have them..” is that Mr. Vang most likely feared for his life as well. It is human nature to simplify such heinous acts and incomprehensible events as good or evil because it is vert easy to look at explanations of events as a sort of justification for them. No one is justifying his actions. BUT, the stories of all who were there corroborate up until the point of who shot first. We are all more likely to believe the victims because the crime is that heinous, but common sense tells us that there must be more to the story. Why would he leave peacefully then turn back and shoot unprovoked? It is most likely the hunters did not know who they were going to harass that day and simply thought that the Hmong dude would react like all the others before him, leave without an incident and take their harassment like a good little asian. And hey, it’ll be good for laughs if we shot at him (not kill him)for fun. Little did they know what would ensue. Mike makes a good point. What Mr. Vang did is not justifiable, but if the community refuses to address the undercurrent and outright acceptance of racism that exists these incidents will never go away and will most likely get worse, for both white, asian and other hunters out there. Let justice take its course.
November 30th, 2004 at 2:48 am
i am disgusted and appalled by u white folks who have never been discriminated before….common sense tells u they had to have shot at him first….imagine if someone shoots at you..it’s u’r life or there’s..would u rather them be alive…..if u’r white u’ll say like the rest of them walk away and reprt to authority…but look stupids…u ain’t got time to reprt u’r running for u’r life….i would of done the same thing…remember that movie with ice tea when he was hunted this is the exact samething….i show no remorse for those who died…i’m sure they provked him…if we both were in the woods i shot u i’m sure u’ll shoot me back….it’s a form called self defense…defnding u’r life like vang and this is where it’s gets u…i’m am disgusted and appalled by u white racists folks especially the media and the hmong state representative….she’s become so into the white community she forgot about the hmong culture she too cannot defend her people and say tht is was nothing of a racial issue…this isn’t that lst of the hmong headlines…just like the black million man march there will be a hmong march….how hmong people have to die or suffer till we prove this case that racisms exist today……good luck chai vang….we’ll pray for u to get a fair trial…..especailly with just white folks handling u’r case…..
November 30th, 2004 at 3:03 am
I hope Chai gets a fair trial. Looks like fingers are all pointing at Chai. Sounds like he’s telling like it is, and admitted that he shot them for self defense, that should count for something. I’m sure if the table was turned, and the caucasian was out numbered, he wouldnt just let them mess with him and shoot at him?? I’m from California and diversified is in our blood…Racism is lame now. I was in Chicago less than a year ago and visited the Packer stadium in Greenbay, and I’ve noticed how asians were treated by caucasian (I’m caucasian myself)….I tell myself…man, these white peeps will never make it in Cali!
Ok, so Chai shot and killed 6 people, he will get what he deserve by the law. But I think God has made his decision as to whom should go..and it was the 6, why, because they get what they deserved…I just dont think its the first time they’ve criticized others or bullied lost hunters….just because they owned the land….like I said…I think they got what they deserve…God chosed them.
November 30th, 2004 at 3:12 am
The more I follow this story, the more sense it makes that Chai did this in self defense. He tells the same story, while other put words in the dead victims mouth and the ones who survive will cover up because no one else will know the truth. My blessing goes out to the victims family, as well as Chai himselffor he needs it. But like Cynthia up there, I am a christian, and I believe that God made his decisions for a good cause. and everybody WILL get what they deserve in life. I too think that this is NOT their first time, I think the owners thinks this is fun and will get away with it, as they had in the past.
November 30th, 2004 at 12:41 pm
Again, what is all this disscussion about discriminationa and race??? He murdered eight men in cold blood. There is no element or question of self-defense. Vang is going to spend the rest of his natural life in prision when he should be executed. What part of this doesn’t anyone understand??? PERIOD!
November 30th, 2004 at 1:04 pm
Scott, Chai Vang hasn’t denied anything. In fact, what irks people is that his story holds up. He is going to pay for his crimes, as is his due. But, to do service to his victims and to trying him fairly as is guaranteed to him under our laws, we need to thouroughly investigate the details. Common sense of human nature and knowledge of prior incidents (just read what people have shared here in addition to other reports) tells us this is a problem that is not going away because of, unfortunatley people like you who refuse to even discourse the matter. Your anger is clouding your judgement, which is way to rash anyhow for someone who wasn’t there.
November 30th, 2004 at 1:13 pm
Interesting. The more I follow the story, the more obvious it becomes that the accused did NOT act in self-defense. Four people shot in the back, one 100 yards away shot 4 times in the back, certainly does not constitute self-defense. As for him telling the same story, that is not true. His first story was that one of the shooting victims took his gun away from him, shot the others in his hunting party, then forced him to walk up to each of the victims. He also told investigators that he shot the last two victims after they approached on an ATV, with a rifle. However, no gun was present at the scene.
As to all the speculation about racism, it simply baffles me the amount of ASS/U/MING that is taking place. It would appear that being a white deer-hunter from Wisconsin automatically makes one a redneck. I guarantee to you that that is not true. Whether or not these people were racist is not for you or I to decide, just as it is not for us to say whether or not Vang is guilty. He will be judged by a jury, and then by God. The victims will be judged, as we all will, by God. Not by Cynthia Worrel, fortunately. “I think they got what they deserved….God chosed them”!?!? And your statement about being at “Packer stadium in Greenbay and I’ve noticed how asians were treated by caucasian”. Well, I guess that makes you an expert.
So sad that these people died. So sad that people can assume that they used deragatory words and therefore deserved to die. Pretty harsh.
November 30th, 2004 at 1:22 pm
A lot of assuming because the press won’t ask/answer the tough questions (heck, it can’t even get the type of gun he used straight: the police report says Saiga 7.62 and the media says SKS, these are different guns)
Vang Claims he was shot at. The police can verify that by checking the one other gun found at the scene. Why haven’t they? If they have, why hasn’t that info been released?
I think it is possible that he may have acted in self-defense initially but then it turned into a murder (that’s based on his own statement). You don’t chase people down and shoot them in the back in self defense.
November 30th, 2004 at 1:56 pm
Yes, thanks Uncle. Is this going to be chalked up so easily? Why after being so quick to assess the situation, have the cops suddenly gone cold on us? Now there are speculations by investigators that he’s a serial killer of hunters, that has made the press. And of course the media would love to depict the guy as having a tail and horns as would the general public. Rushing to judgement has all sorts of outcomes…Would we buy the story of self-defense more if it was a white hunter who killed other hunters, say Native Americans on their reservations, or colors who approached him? (In what sequence that is still unclear.)
November 30th, 2004 at 2:05 pm
Sacha, absolutely. This case will enjoy the full benefit of lawful due process guarantee of this country, I just find it difficult to understand what all the rhetoric is about in the face of the obvious. This is blatantly a gross aberation of any behavior worthy of commiseration…no anger here, just baffeled.
November 30th, 2004 at 2:46 pm
I just feel like I need to add my two cents on the weapon used issue. SKS rifles can be customized many ways and by different manufacturers. So I think Vai was using a SKS rifle marketed by Saiga (or a conversion kit) or using a Saiga manufactured stock, barrel etc… Just like AR-15′s come in various models from different manufacturers. The guns are all functionally very similar if not identical and shoot the exact same round, just different styles of stocks, barrels, and trigger assemblies. But they are all AR-15′s just like all SKS rifles are SKS rifles and they shoot the exact same rounds (no matter who makes it).
November 30th, 2004 at 2:51 pm
Actually, the Saiga (manufactured by European American Armory) is a Kalashnakov clone not an SKS variant (even the serial number listed in one press account indicates it was an EAA):
http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/saiga/rifles/saigawoodt.shtml
I don’t know that saiga markets SKS rifles at all.
November 30th, 2004 at 2:56 pm
You guys all have interesting comments!!! I too am Hmong and have been following this story since the beginning. When I first heard this story, I really didn’t think that racism was involved. As new information came up, I started to hear all these things about racial issues and then I finally considered the possibility. I have never been confronted by racist white folks before because I live in a pretty decent city but I also don’t doubt that things like Chai Vang said didn’t happen. I feel ashamed because it has to be our people that made the biggest headline of Wisconsin but I am also ashamed that because it was our people that shot at the white folks, it HAD to be the biggest headline of Wisconsin. I really dont know if this story would have been this big if those victims were Hmong and the Chai was white. This just shows the differences between Hmong and the Caucasion.
November 30th, 2004 at 3:15 pm
To me it does not really matter what was said and who shot first the point is that he killed 6 people and for that I think that he sould be put into prison for life. You don’t shoot people in the back in self defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
November 30th, 2004 at 3:20 pm
I think the people who left positive remarks on this murderer are hmong people using american names- look at the grammar and spelling. This guy should be tortured to DEATH- after days of pain. Anyone who feels sorry for him should be sent back wherever they came from because they aren’t american. Hmong season started that day and the bag limit seems to be 6 per person. If I were in the woods and saw one of you little beatty eyed bastards I’d shoot you dead.
November 30th, 2004 at 3:21 pm
I really don’t think anyone has said he should not serve for his crime. He does not deny killing the hunters, but it is plausible that he initially reacted in self-defense. Vang deserves a fair trial. To explain the events is not to justify them. No matter what, lives have been taken and it is not a who done it but a why done it. Simply, chalking it up as evil doesn’t cut it.
November 30th, 2004 at 3:27 pm
Karen, it matters due to the position his lawyers will take. Also, it matters because if he did shoot first after being fired upon, then the first shot would be considered justifiable. The subsequent hunting down and shooting unarmed person in the back, however, is inexcusable. In other words, he is currently charged with six counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder. He could get the charges dropped to five counts.
Kevin, you’re an idiot. I don’t think anyone indicated feeling sorry for him but were trying to figure out what set him off.
Lilly, I concur.
November 30th, 2004 at 3:28 pm
Kevin, it’s exactly your extermist white mentality that needs to be addressed here. Isn’t it hilarious that Hmong people have american names? You just have no concept do you? I have an american name because I was born in america dumbass. I know it hurts honey, but I am Hmong, and I am an American citizen. I pay taxes just like you and oh no, I am college educated and my english is probably better than yours. My mother always said, you reap what you sow so watch your back. I on the other hand, would rather consider humans as enlightened individuals. You need to crawl back to the hole you came from.
November 30th, 2004 at 3:36 pm
this bastard chased unarmed people down and shot them in the back, then when he came back to the area and saw one still standing he said “your not dead yet” and shot him. anyone siding with him is too stupid to be in this counrty. he then tells people that they called him names- who has not been called names- and that the majority had guns- police found one gun among the victims, the rest were at the cabin- and one of them shot and “missed” from 60 feet. OK a deer hunter missing from that distance on opening weekend- FLAT OUT B.S.. he killed jessica willers while she was unarmed on a atv riding to help her father, he told police he chased one man who was sceaming for HELP and shot him in the back. this country turned its back on its own citizens- countless victims with no end. someone needs to take this trash out, we have too many murderers/rapists in our jails, we are paying for them to live. this bastard and anyone who feels sorry for him should die.
November 30th, 2004 at 3:43 pm
hmong people with american names -sounds like you don’t like where you came from. what happened did one of your countrymen tresspass on your property and leave trash then kill your family? then say you’ll called him names and tried to kill him first?
November 30th, 2004 at 3:43 pm
Kevin, I wanted to refrain but here goes… Like I said I am Hmong, I am aware of the racism Hmong hunters encounter, I have encountered racism growing up in WI, there are parts of WI I won’t even stop in, blah blah. But I have never said or am not currently feeling sorry for the guy. Stop assuming so much you dumbass. You know who shouldn’t live in a democratic nation? People like you who have no appreciation or clue about democracy or what this nation stands for. Get over your self. The shoot first and ask questions later mentality is what you perpetuate, so in all reality, YOU support CHAI VANG’s actions more than anybody else here! Geez.
November 30th, 2004 at 4:04 pm
i never singled out anyone in saying they felt sorry for him. i would not kill someone for anything other than self-defense, i was trying to piss some of you off. i am very mad that this has been turned into a race issue. this fellow killed 6 people and wounded 2, then lied and tried to blame them for his mistakes. it does NOT matter where he is from or what color he is- he is a murderer.
November 30th, 2004 at 4:08 pm
you rasicm white folks don’t even make sense. you guys are basing your argument on angry and not on the facts. i too am a hunter and in my whole entire life of hunting have never seen a group of adult white hunter sharing one gun except when their with their 12 year old son. i too have been harass by white hunter on public land in the serria mountains of california. they be claiming that it’s private property and telling us to leave or they’ll call the game warden, when on the map it clearly show that it’s public land. even the damn game warden say that it public land. damn those white people, they think they own everything. those that claim they know guns, any caliber is capiable of taking down a deer. it’s where you shoot it and not how powerful your ammo is. and beside everyone know that the press is always bias, so i’m giving chai and his family my support and also to the hmong community. this country is not yet a colored-blind soceity, rasicm is still in the air.
November 30th, 2004 at 4:37 pm
I really don’t think it was a rasicm thing. People just don’t like people to be hunting on there land w/o asking, doesn’t matter what color you are. You just don’t use some ones tree stand. And wouldn’t that tell you that you are probably some place you shouldn’t be?
“White People are being discriminated too! look at all the Hmong people that have said “you White people” I think that no matter what race the 6 people could have been it was 6 people shot and killed it would have made the news not matter what!!
November 30th, 2004 at 4:55 pm
Dana: “You just don’t use some ones tree stand.” Are you implying that the hunters are justified in whatever action they took or would have taken against Vang for a tree stand??? What if it were a white hunter on an Indian reservation in Northern WI? It is well known that Whites are not particularly greeted with open arms in certain parts of WI? Would they have been justified in whatever action they took against an apparently lost white hunter or a hunter trespassing for that matter who was apparently leaving peacefully? Your line of thinking would only perpetuate more incidents like this. Lets not even talk about land ownership. If the Indians had killed all the Pilgrims would they have been justified? Let’s talk common sense shall we, and stop playing on our own prejudices.
November 30th, 2004 at 5:06 pm
lilly is an idiot ha ha ha ha ha
November 30th, 2004 at 5:09 pm
Kevin, are you sure you’re not dana?
November 30th, 2004 at 5:19 pm
Well said John Busse!
November 30th, 2004 at 6:00 pm
I can easily tell by reading these posts that most of you do not hunt. 37 hunting seasons under my belt give me a pretty good perspective on hunting common sense.
First and foremost, if you are truly lost, and you stumble upon a PERMANENT TREE STAND, you know you are on private property. You immediately turn around and get out…posted or not. Secondly, the LAST thing you would do is get into that stand. You know you are trespassing.
In my travels I’ve run into people in the woods that informed me that I was on private property much to my surprise. They can be quite nasty about it. All you can do as a consciencious sportsman is to apologize profusely. This guy/gal owns private land for a reason, he doesn’t want to see another hunter and he doesn’t want the deer on that property to be disturbed from natural movement. Respect for their rights as a landowner has to be honored first and foremost.
The worst case scenario for ANY incident is to get the authorities involved. 99% of the confrontations that occur in the field are resolved amicably. .99% are resolved through law enforcement. This case is hopefully something we will never see again in our lifetimes.
As hard as it may be to some of us, let’s pray for everyone involved. Please keep your posts at a level that promotes civil discussion.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:02 pm
Lilly see you don’t get it! We don’t know what happend and we may never know what truly happend in those woods that day! I’m just saying that if you used common sense you wouldn’t sit in someones tree stand for how ever long he did. Like Josh Martin said if Vang was in a tree stand..and he knew he was in the wrong…why didn’t he come down first?? Or did he?? If I was on someone else’s land..and obviously he knew he was, and I saw other hunters, I would immidiately come down and explain myself. Why wait till they told him to get out of the tree stand? QAnd why not ask for help out of the woods? What Vang did was wrong. If one of the hunters did shot first then I can understand selfdefence the one person who had the gun. But 8 people? 6 dead 4 with shots to the back thats not selfdefence!
November 30th, 2004 at 6:06 pm
CV. Thank you for explaining it better then I did. That was the point I was tring to get across.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:10 pm
Dana, read my prior comments. CV is right, and your comments were not even close to his impartialism. Get off the tree stand already.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:12 pm
And stop assuming already what Vang’s actions were. CV didn’t and I haven’t even, I’ve only commented on yours and others close minded black and white assumptions of the situation.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:20 pm
I can’t belive that some of you seem to be making ecxuses for that man. I hope that he feels even a little bit of the pain that he caused the friends and family of those that he murdered in cold blood.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:23 pm
Has is occured to any of you that he might just be a twisted asshole and it has nothing to do with race of small town minds or any of that he just might be a sick little f*cker!!!!!!
November 30th, 2004 at 6:25 pm
Hello. I just would like to say a few things. I stumbled upon this site as I was looking up todays events with Chai Vang. The reason that I am interested in this is because I live here in Rice Lake WI where the 6 people who were killed and the 2 people who were injured are from. I had my own family of hunters in the woods the day that Chai Vang lost his mind. I say that loosely. There are a few things that I would like to clear up. One is that the reason they only had one gun between a group of 20 hunters is…There was only one set of hunters in the woods actually hunting when they noticed Mr. Vang (definately more respect than I should give him) sitting in a fellow hunters’ stand. So..there was only ONE gun needed in the woods at that time. When the altercation happened with Vang and a couple of other hunters came out of the cabin, they had no reason to bring out weapons. And again…after Vang began his massacre and the others came out after recieving a call for help, they weren’t thinking anything that bad was happening out there, so they did not bring weapons. They left 2 younger hunters inside the cabin and went to find out what was going on. One of the boys was a nephew and a son of some who were getting killed in the woods. I know that one of the hunters that survived said that one of the land owner (who died) did say something to Vang after he refused to leave that wasn’t nice. But when someone isn’t listening to you and you needed the stand for your family for the days hunt and you started out trying to be nice, you tend to raise your voice a bit. And he said some profane things as well. Which isn’t shocking. But he wasn’t going to shoot at Mr. Vang. I know this because he was an upstanding member and business owner in our community. He was prideful in our tradition of hunting and excited to be hunting with his sons and nephews and friends. The son who was screaming “Help Me!! Help Me!!” as Vang chased him down and shot him 4 times in the back. The friends who were shot of the 4 wheeler 3 times each in the back as they were trying to get away, not be confrontational. One of the people on that ATV that was shot off of it and hit 3 times in the back was a woman. Not just a woman, but a daughter, who’s father was wounded and lie next to a tree and watched his daughter get slaughtered along with a close friend. You tell me that these 6 people deserved to die and that you hope that they had a slow death and rot in hell. Well…I believe that you should get the facts straight before you pass judgement. I know that there are a lot of white people with problems. I know the same is true about every race of humanity. I am not going to side with a murderer just because I might demean my race. It is more demeaning to my race to have me side with the murderer than it is to accept that there are bad people in every bunch, and that not all peoples are worthy of acceptance. That no matter what “race” you are there are bad and good. But just because you are Hmong, doesn’t mean what Chai Vang did was deserved by those lives he shattered that one cherished opening deer season weekend. It will forever haunt this community. I don’t condemn all Hmongs for the action of this one sick individual. Just as I don’t condone the behavior of all Whites. I think it’s wrong to do so. Please just know that the people that were affected here were good people. Mr. Crotteau and his son Joe, who were the co-owners of a father/son business, left behind a wife, a mother, a daughter, a sister, a son and a brother. Shattered a family. Mr. Laski who was the mananger of a building center left behind a wife and children…3 that I know of. Ms. Willers was engaged to be married, as was Joe Crotteau. Mr. Drew was well known an loved in this area and left behind lots of family. Mr. Roidt was a fun loving individual who was always ready for anything. He was up to working or playing with children. Mr. Hesebeck and Mr. Willers were both very nice men. This tragedy should not have happened. I feel that this is NOT a racially motivated event and that the Hmong people are trying to make it out as that. I have been reading a lot of various accounts of what happened. Chai Vang’s story has changed more than once, the survivors’ (who happen to be white) stories haven’t changed. Including the admition that a verbal dispute had taken place. Whether or not it had anything to do with Mr. Vang’s race remains to be seen. I just know that “White” people are not the only race of people to be prejudice or racist. That is a prejudice right there in thinking it. You can’t tell me that all races of people love everyone in all other races. That is a farce. There IS prejudice out there…out there in ALL areas, not just the White race. And the “redneck” deer hunters up here in Wisconsin aren’t all bad people just as all of the Hmong people are not bad. It is a travisty to think so. It is sad to think that in this day and age racism is still as prominent as it is…I hope to be raising my daughters in a way that helps to change that. But…then you have an incident such as this happen…and it forgoes everything that has been taught to this point. All of a sudden all the racial tension grows again. The walls come up and you look at people differently…maybe not because you dislike them…but as the one man said “the trust has been broken.” You spend your days going through this life as best you can. Teaching children to accept one another in love and kindness only to be repented with tragedies as this….it is scary and sad…Please forgive me if I have offended anyone. That is not my intention. My intention is to spread some light on this very shadowed, very horrific event. Please read all you can about the ENTIRE case. Not just that you chose to see. Read all the details. Not just those you hope to hear. Thank you.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:30 pm
lol put ANY soldier in any hostile territory, its DUH that he wouldn’t just scream and stay in one spot and fire in the air. He’s trained to be put himself in the soldier mode. Soldiers don’t just stand around. He’s not gonna sit around wait for them to come so it looks more convincing that he was defending himself. Defending is a form of forced offense. He was forced to do what he didn’t want to do.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:31 pm
Karen-There’s a fine line between explanations and excuses. An explanation is not a justification. Simply chalking this up as a loony nut will not address what really happened. The hope is to never have any more victims and to understand what happened that day. I don’t think anyone feels he is not guilty. I don’t think anyone feels he should not do his time. However, let lady justice take her course. The man is exmilitary, he served his country, he was trained as a sniper, and he is an american who will benefit from our democratic system. There is no burning at the stake, no public stoning, just angry folks blogging. It is plausible that initially it was self-defense. That is what is being discussed here. That is not a justification. That is a lead into why events escalated into these unfortunate deaths.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:34 pm
Oh what you are mad now buz I said you don’t get it!! But I truly don’t think you do. Just like I’m probably not getting what you are saying I don’t know your way of liveing and you don’t know how the people in that area live, but I do, I lived there in Rusk county not very far from where is happend! I’m not by any means saying that I’m write and that I know what all took place! I have friends of all cultures so i’m not singling out Vang. I don’t care if Vang would have been white I would feel the same way.
And by the way the Tree stand is why the whole thing started! He was on privite land in their stand. You must not hunt or know any one that does!
And I see that you have only pick me to make comments about. And I’m not assuming what Vangs actions were. It’s what has been said in the media and things that I have found out from being in that area this past week.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:40 pm
Does a tiger run away from a hunter for fear of death or the love of life? Mr. Vang on the other hand, is not a tiger. He was lost and did not know where to run. I can imagine the average person would panic like crazy if they were lost and surrounded by a group of people in the woods and shot at. geez imagine. You see society, they attack the symptoms of criminality. So they put them in jail. (The easy way of dealing with things) But hardly do anything to help the cause problems of people…..That’s lack of education.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:42 pm
Dana, there you go assuming again. And here I am assuming your addressing me. So here goes honey: My husband is Hmong. He grew up in Green Bay. He, his brothers and his father have hunted deer for almost twenty years. They are all NRA card carriers. So, I think that their stories of constant harassment, mind you on public land, every year, and I mean every year there is an incident, does give me some clue. They’ve been spat at, called gooks more than you will ever appreciate, had their car vandalized, gestured menacingly at with white hunters holding their guns, and so on. The DNR has been trying to address this situation for a long time. My brother works for the DNR. So why don’t you stop assuming already. I haven’t even begun to imagine what kind of background you come from, but I guess its obvious.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:48 pm
I hear ya warner.
November 30th, 2004 at 6:51 pm
Lilly,
Let me be clear. I am pretty well convinced that Vang knew he was on private land when he crawled up that tree and simply did not care about landowner rights. I can support that claim due to his previous trespassing conviction.
No matter what words were exchanged, to escalate this “common situation” by pointing a loaded weapon at someone else, let alone actually pull the trigger, shooting some of these people in the back and vocalizing his disatisfaction that they weren’t dead makes me ill.
Our group first heard of the incident in our deer camp 3 miles from the shootings on Monday morning at 4:30AM. We just sat there looking at each other stunned. It wasn’t until we heard from multiple reports on the radio that the suspect was apprehended that we even considered venturing outside. I kept my kids within sight after that.
I am sad to say that this incident has changed me in some ways. How am I going to react the next time I encounter a trespasser? What if I end up on private property? What about just seeing other hunters on public land? I have never been on edge in the woods or been concerned about my personal safety (even on public land). It has been my escape to relax and enjoy the tradition and comradery of being with my friends and family.
Now, I fear for them too. Especially the younger ones. Will they handle situations properly so as not to provoke an escalation? Allowing my kids to hunt by themsleves has now become a dangerous situation? I can teach my children but will others teach their children common sense and the unwritten rules of respect for others?
Hopefully this uneasiness will pass by next season, but thanks to Mr. Vang , I cannot even convince myself that this will never happen again. How am I supposed to convince my kids if I cannot convince myself?
November 30th, 2004 at 6:51 pm
Warner, I was not addressing that to you at all I was to Lilly. I’m sorry you thought I was. I guess I don’t understand what I am assuming. How many times have I said we really don’t know what happend that day. But I do know allot of details that most of you wouldn’t know. My sister works at the Rice Lake Clinic. My backround Is very well rounded I have never ever been racist thats not my familys ways. Are you from that area? You would understand most people don’t think that way around there. It’s not like the beigger cities. I know live in one.
November 30th, 2004 at 7:16 pm
CV-I understand your hesitancy. Don’t be offended but as a white male, it is unlikely that you worry about racial discrimination everyday of your life towards yourself, your children and your wife. I am Hmong and I’ve lived in WI all my life and have settled in Madison, the only city I feel comfortable in. I’ve seen a lot as a youngster growing up in Janesville and Appleton, and it hasn’t been pretty. But, I like many minorities have dealt with it in our own way. I have worked with the DNR and have family members who are avid hunters, and discrimination has been the norm. I’ve heard the same stories people have posted from my siblings and cousins, and sadly my father who is a mild mannered man who doesn’t say much. Can you understand why this is such a powder keg? I don’t believe that Chai should not pay for his horrid actions, but simply discounting race as an issue as did the sheriff and other bloggers will not address what this situation has brought to light. We need to have discourse. CV, like you I strive to be enlightened and like you, at times I am pessimistic. I can only hope that only good things can come out of this. That the victims will be properly mourned, that the perpetrator will be processed justly. In situations like this it is hard to project what the other half is thinking. But retribution of any kind, either in thought or action, is just wrong especially to other Hmong hunters. The Hmong community has condemned Chai Vang, there is no call for justice, no uproar as you would see from the African community if he were black. We are all not alike. Just like when I was growing up, I had to tell myself all white people were not alike. That is a crucial step, I guess.
November 30th, 2004 at 7:19 pm
Dee, i am so glad you wrote that.. I am greaving with you.. people from bigger towns just don’t think the same as little close knit towns. The whole town in greaving, not just a few, and even people that don’t live in that area any more. Things like that just don’t happend around there.
November 30th, 2004 at 7:29 pm
Lil I hear you too. Take care of yourself. Dana I understand where you’re coming from. My parents are from up north and I grew up awashed in the small town mentality. It’s got its goods and bads. It took them a long time to accept my husband. Racism exists, it gnaws and it is menacing, I’ve felt it, my children feel it and my husband has dealt with it all his life, even now as a professional. No one thinks Vang was justified, but common sense tells us there’s more to the story. We are not looking to blame just to understand. Civility is all we have.
November 30th, 2004 at 7:32 pm
DEE says it all- how can anyone read that and still feel sorry for this creep? If you do that’s just showing you are an illogical thinker with issues way before this event took place.
November 30th, 2004 at 7:36 pm
Get over the sorry thing! No one is saying they feel sorry for the guy! Read the posts already.
November 30th, 2004 at 7:43 pm
Just scroll up Kevin.
November 30th, 2004 at 7:49 pm
After reading some of the above comments, it appears that I will be able to kill the next person who calls me whitey.
November 30th, 2004 at 7:53 pm
If that’s your interpretation Jim, than you’ve missed the point. However, very funny. Indeed.
November 30th, 2004 at 8:07 pm
this is all i got to say…no one knows the true story…the people that would know the story are the victims…anything could be possible…just becus the 8 victims were nice people among their fellow people in their community does not mean that they can’t do shit to whoever they want….how would u know if the victims that survived are telling the truth…how would u know if chai vang is telling the truth….anyone could be lying…there were no witnesses that saw who started the shooting or why did the shooting take place….chai vang was a trained shooter and he was in the army….isn’t that a sign of someone who would serve for his country….chai vang’s brother had said that he was a great man to them….his daughter had said he was a loving father….everyone has a bad side to them and a good side….the comment from dee said that the 8 victims were all nice people…but does she know the bad side of them….she pointed out the good things the 8 victims had done….but remember that all people have bad sides to them….what chai vang did was wrong…but why did he do it??? his story stated that he was being called names and was shot after he obeyed….the 2 victims that survived stated that chai fired at them first….so??? who’s telling the truth….the world may never know….therefore, the trial as to go equally both way….there is a 50, 50 chance that chai’s story is what really happened….there is also a 50 50 chance that the two victim’s story is true too…..so as of now….no one should be defending any one side….the people who automatically concludes that chai is lying becus of the things he did which should not have been done then…they should think twice, becus the victims u think are innocent could be lying…..i just wish a fair trial chai vang…..
November 30th, 2004 at 8:14 pm
this is to kevin….people have different feelings towards this issue…if u dont like what you’re seeing u should just leave and keep ur feelings to urself….
November 30th, 2004 at 8:20 pm
fair trial for chai vang…is all i want to say….
November 30th, 2004 at 8:21 pm
To those of you who don’t understand or are unable to conceive why Chai Vang reacted in the way that he did let me propose a scenario for you. Picture yourself, a non-minority (aka Caucasian American) in a non-white land where you are viewed as a perpetual foreigner, the natives are by and large accepting of the fact that you are there as long as you don’t get too close into their world, marry their children, associate with them on an equal footing in society, you get my drift. Now besides the fact that most of the natives accept your presence, there are many who don’t like you because you present a possible threat to their way of living because you are different, foreign, keep to yourself because you don’t speak their language. It seems that everyday is a struggle to try to fit in, to be a part of the majority, to prove your “nativeness.” But alas, you can’t hide the fact that you are white, it’s written on your face, your skin, your scent etc. You’ve had many dealings with hostile natives throughout your stay in this new land. They hurl insults at you, calling you every derogatory name under the sun, but yet you still manage to maintain your sanity and to raise a family and to be a productive member of society. You’re an avid hunter and have heard of stories amongst your friends about the hostility the natives show towards Caucasians, you even hear stories of conflicts that end up in natives pointing guns at your friends and members of your community. But hey, that will never happen to you because you’ve been here for a long period of time and you understand the rules that govern native society especially when if comes to hunting. One day while out hunting with your friends, you become lost and decide to venture up a tree stand in order to help find your way out or to continue your hunt, whichever doesn’t really matter. A native person sees you on his private land and yells at you to get off. “Are you aware that this is private land?” he asks
“No, I’m not aware, I did not see any signs posted.” you reply
“Well this is private land and you better get off that stand and be on your way.” the native demands. You comply with the owner’s request and get off the tree stand. You then hear the owner radio to someone and moments later a group arrives on ATV’s. Now there are six natives surrounding you. They decide, now that they’ve outnumbered you, to teach you a good lesson. With numbers come boldness, the owner who was initially cordial with you has a gun in his hand and friends by his side. He doesn’t fear you nor does he appreciate you on his land.
He shout’s “That’s right you fucking white devil get the fuck off my land!”
His friends chime in, “goddam cracka, dumb redneck motherfucker, don’t you know where you belong!!!”
You feel yourself burn up inside with murderous rage but you calm yourself since you’ve heard it all before, names can’t hurt you, you just need to walk away. As you continue to walk, you turn to see one of the natives lift his rifle and point at you. You immediately take a crouching position per your military training and wince as a bullet passes by you. Not realizing that the bullet was only meant as a warning shot to teach you “white devils” where you belong, you immediately enter survival mode, you remove your scope and return fire hitting the initial assailant, all that rage and anger that has built up inside you not only throughout this hostile encounter but the rage and anger built up through years of racial taunting have finally taken it’s toll, in a deraged state of mind you become a methodical killing machine taking out all the natives who represent the rage and anger you have inside. It isn’t until you’ve shot your eighth victim that you realize what you have done. You throw away the rest of your ammunition because you don’t want to kill any more innocent people. You run off into the woods shocked at what just had occurred. You find a fellow hunter who gives you a ride back to his cabin where the game warden is waiting to arrest you. The End ..for now.
Author’s note: the derogatory names used to describe Caucasians in this ficticous story were meant to be there for effect, not to hurt the feelings of any particular reader….
November 30th, 2004 at 9:10 pm
I can’t help but LOL at what Chris posted yesterday…”What the heck is a Hmong? Sounds like some kind of damn bug. Anyway, he killed a large number of unrelated people. It is terribly unlikely that all those people had anything to do with a consipiracy to kill. To Mr. Vang’s fellow countrymen – watch out. You are outnumbered, and we’re watching you. The trust has been broken.”
And Kevin, you have the VISION brother!!!
November 30th, 2004 at 9:31 pm
cv, just becasue you have 37 season of hunting experience doesn’t mean you know common sense when you see a tree stand. i don’t know where your from, but in california, tree stand are all over public hunting land. even though there not suppose to be there. and you know what, tree stand are only use by white hunter. let me tell you a little story that happen to my cousin while we where hunting on public land. this part is what my cousins told me. he saw a big clearing that looked like there was gonna be deers going through, so he walked a little bit farer on the outshirt of the clearly and saw that there was a tree stand. and in the state of california you can not have tree stand on public land. so he climbed on the tree stand and waited. he heard some noise coming from the back. he turned his head and saw that a white hunter was approching him. so he waited to see what the white hunter was gonna say. and guess what the white hunter said “what are you doing in my stand gook, don’t you know this is private property. get down or i’m gonna call the game warden.” he knew that it was public land becasue we were hunting in the middle of a national forest and was stopped by a game warden 2 weeks before the incident by procedure. in california game warden checks every hunter on the first day of deer season. we asked the game warden if there was any private properity around. and he told us not for another 70 miles. so back to the story. my cousin striaght up told him that this is public land and he can call the game warden all he wants because tree stands are not allow in californias forest and it’s a first come first serve on public land. the white hunter just looked at him and called my cousin a few names and then just walked away. after a few mintue and seeing that the white hunter had disappear, my cousin got down from the tree stand because he was afraid that the other hunter was gonna shoot him down the tree. he called everyone to the car and told us happen. we all sayed fuck this and just went home.
the law says you can’t stake an area on public land, it’s a first come first serve. just because someone was there first and you came last and it’s the “hot spot” doesn’t mean you can tell them to leave and call them names. this one time we even got gun pointed at us by some white hunter telling us to leave a spot because there was a deer trail that cut through that clearing. lucky for them if we weren’t so pussy to shot them. it would have been us who would be making the headlines. so we just walked away peacefully and never came back to that spot.
it’s about time someone showed those whites, that it’s not ok to bullie little asians hunter around. know that saying, “what you do onto others, others will do on to you.” lol what chai did was a little overbroad, but hey they desevre it. let this country be a country of color-blinds and not a country of color. peace.
November 30th, 2004 at 9:45 pm
scott and chirs, it’s more like “WE” be watching you because the trust between you and us was never there. how can you trust someone when your always being call chinks, gooks, and monkeys. you know what funny to me is when redneck inbred whitetrash like you tells us to go back to our own country when you, yourself are not native to this land. so when you go back to your country, then i’ll go back to mine. got it? peace.
November 30th, 2004 at 10:02 pm
hello
November 30th, 2004 at 10:04 pm
hello
November 30th, 2004 at 10:08 pm
Kevin, unless you are an eskimo or a native American do not tell anyone (esp. people of color)to go back to where they come from. Nort America was not created for whites. Do you know where the eskimos and native americans originally from?
November 30th, 2004 at 11:19 pm
I think Larry Yang Said enough for my side of the story. I beleive that Hmong people are very humble and sure sometime the Language barrier complicate us, but we need to learn each other cultures and come together. I am not Hmong but I dont see why any person should treat any person differently than any other person. I understand that a person tresspass on your property, but does that person need to be kill because they got lost and end up in your land? The way I see it, people should be happy with what they have and enjoy with what they have. I dont agree on taking anyone’s life for that matter no matter what the situation is, but if my life is threaten… then that will be a different story. If the owner of this land own 400 acres of land, why would one person in his land bother him that much to have a verbal confrontation with? now would you walk up to a person with a machine gun and talk shit to him? I guess the folks up there in the woods didnt know and by the way, Rule number one, If you point a gun at a person, make sure you shoot him and kill him because if you missed, This is what happen!!! God send Vang to hunt the white for the deers that killed for many years. pay back for the deers!!!
November 30th, 2004 at 11:26 pm
For Dee.. I am Hmong.. I respect your perspective on this tragic event. Just letting you know that I’m not offended.
November 30th, 2004 at 11:32 pm
At the same time, I wish a fair trial for Mr. Chai Vang
November 30th, 2004 at 11:42 pm
Larry, no matter how hard the Hmong commmunity tried to coop with this, Justic will not preveal in this case because it’s and all white justice system my friend. They will burn Mr. Vang but you know something? he definitely went out with a big BANG!!! I glad Chai Vang stood up. Maybe we need something like this to wake these Racist people from their long NAP!!! I will pray for Mr. Vang before bed and I will also pray for those who are in heaven.
November 30th, 2004 at 11:44 pm
Howard Sugarman are u white….if not thnks for understding….but if you r…damn that’s prbly the only white man that understand this tragic moment….let’s not forget retards like kevin america is built of foreign people…what nationality are u dumbass kevin….
November 30th, 2004 at 11:50 pm
I’m not white or black but I am a human being, I bleed the same color as any other races will and the color of my blood is red and so is yours. Dont let the name fools you, I am of an asian descent.
November 30th, 2004 at 11:51 pm
To all you dumb people who don’t understand and r just making comments cuz your people got shot, hmong people are not condonging what vang did, he is guilty of the murder but that fact that he did it in self defense was not his fault cuz u raicsts bastards provked and shot at him first….and what a great shot vang made…kevin….no doubt vang did it to defend his life and probly should receive life in prison…it’s the principline…he did it in self defense
November 30th, 2004 at 11:58 pm
FREE CHAI VANG!!!!! and stop the RACISM!!!
November 30th, 2004 at 11:58 pm
To Larry Yang That was a very nice thing to say to Dee.. I respect you for that.. Just goes to show that there is always a bad apple in every race! Some “white” people have said very nasty things and so have the Hmongs about white people. But why really are we making such a big deal about the race thing? It happens every day in every city, to every race. And you know that other races think that the white people are stupid and you know they say that too. I’m not saying that’s it’s ok to do this. I just don’t think that we should be saying that its the whites against the Hmongs. We know that things were said but how do we know that Vang didn’t say racist things too? We don’t. The info is just not out there yet. We really only have Vangs side of the story, and just that the others said he shot first. Really no other details have been said.
November 30th, 2004 at 11:59 pm
it’s crazie how white people get on here and threaten hmong people again like that very same day vang was threaten….but rednecks…if think about it…i see how u guyz say tht trust is broken and that you guyz will be watching cuz you guyz out number us…think about it…if vang.. only one person can kill six 20 of us can kill 200 of you be aware ahahahahha….
December 1st, 2004 at 12:04 am
Disgusted by white folks you are one of those bad apples!
December 1st, 2004 at 12:05 am
Kevin wrote:
“hmong people with american names -sounds like you don’t like where you came from. what happened did one of your countrymen tresspass on your property and leave trash then kill your family? then say you’ll called him names and tried to kill him first?”
Kevin directs this to the Hmong population in general. That’s what it seems. He thinks he’s funny and that its funny that Hmong folks have American names. I wouldn’t be surprised if he becomes a future victim. I hope that doesn’t happen, though. See Kevin, I’m a nice guy. Really.. & wholy shit, I’m Hmong!! Even worst for you, I’m an American!! I’m quite proud of it, how bout you???!! & even if you’re an asshole, and said some very uncalled for things like you just did and probably have been saying for the past period of your shamed existance… and probably think like the Nazi you are….. I wish no death to you! it’ll probably just come to you in a very gruesom hard hitting fashion.!! Really, buddy!
December 1st, 2004 at 12:09 am
jim, if tht’s how u feel that being called whitey, u will kill…tht’s fine…u obviously do not understnd….chink and gook does not mean asain… i can understand if someone said that the asian man is tresspassing and they are going to call authorities on him but if they said chink and threatened i would be upset…see if a white man tresspasses on my 10 acres i have i would say a white man did it but i’m not going to say a redneck….but since you’ve already prvked me…you are a redneck yourself…cracker
December 1st, 2004 at 12:16 am
actually dana…i have become a bad apple since this has happen..i don’t know if your white or hmong and i really don’t care but you obviously will never understand….how blacks are missing in southern states of america that our white system does not care….i’m telling you since the black million man march…i assure u there will be a hmong march….i understand that vang shot 6 people and there dead…i’m no god but they deserved it….hmong people do not kill to fun unless crackers prvke them i can tell you that…the point is vang admits he killed them…but the principle here is self defense….i don’t know if any of u call recall tht old movie with ice tea where he was hunted …..even the innocent tht ran away after they didn’t want to kill him anymore he killed for the fact that he didn’t know…all he knew was that he was a mad man and frieghtened for life…day sah vu for all you racists bastards..u think ice tea was a great actor…i know vang is…
December 1st, 2004 at 12:24 am
Disgusted by white folks do you know Vang? Have you talked to him?
December 1st, 2004 at 12:36 am
i shouldn’t speak for anyone but my self….i have encounterd racial contact with many whites….my best friend is black…i have had mutal prblms with some blacks but the funny thing is they don’t use racial slurs…they may very curse but i have never ran in to that prblm with blacks…..dana do u think i know vang? ok dana i am curious now what is your nationality….and if i did what is it do you…..i know many hmongs…and many more….i also know the state of minnesota representative who is blind to see no racial prblms with this issue…it’s embrassing to see the hmong cultural die like this….some hmong people get so caught up in their work and want to be relectd so they claim there is no racial issue don’t u think that’s embrassing….my parnts are older and they have been on trips with her personally…i am sad to say…a true embrassment to the hmong cultural…
December 1st, 2004 at 12:37 am
i feel you digusted by white folks. dana are you one of those R.N.I.W.T.? if not then don’t ask stupid questions.
December 1st, 2004 at 12:54 am
Disgusted by white folks you talk like you know him and you know why he did it!! How can you think that killing 6 people is ok to do because some one may have called you names? And what does it matter what race I am? Like I said before I don’t care if Vang is hmong, white, black, green, and so on. Killing 6 people is just wrong, how can people say the deserved it? No one does I don’t care what color you are. It could have been that he was protecting himself but you don’t shoot at 8 people and some ran away. And why are you saing that you would kill people too? It’s almost 2005, killing people over stubid things like name calling was in the wild wild west times!
And to Steven what the hell is R.N.I.W.T.
December 1st, 2004 at 1:03 am
Dana, please read Dean comment #103 to see why Mr. Vang did what he did.
December 1st, 2004 at 1:05 am
See the criminal complaint at the following location: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/news/COMPLAINT.pdf. Read this and then you can be better informed.
Now, I live in Wisconsin but grew up in Southwest Iowa. I love hunting and fishing and I share that with many families throughout the United States. It is a rich and deep family tradition, going back generations. I was taught, as all true sportsmen and sportswomen are, to first and foremost, respect nature. Second, respect the land. Third, respect your privilege (not to be confused with your rights) to hunt. Regardless of whether there is a sign saying “No Trespassing” or not, it is the hunter’s responsibility to know who owns what. “No Trespassing” laws do not say you have to post signs…do you post signs on your domicile? No, the law is still specific as to the tenant’s or landowner’s rights. I know that if I were lost in the Northwoods of Wisconsin, climbing into a tree stand in the middle of the forest wouldn’t help me see anything more than trees. If I were lost and found a tree stand next to a well-used trail, logic would tell me, “Hey, there must be people close by. Maybe they can help me find my way.” If I was truly indeed beyong-the-shadow-of-doubt LOST, my first concern would not to keep hunting, but to find the way OUT! The Northwoods of Wisconsin is not the wilderness of Alaska, but it is not New York’s Central Park or your city’s petting zoo. I WOULD NOT CONTINUE HUNTING DEER IF I WERE TRULY LOST! Regardless of who said what, nothing justifies the calculated murder of another HUMAN BEING. A man killed a man. In this case, a man systematically hunted and murdered six people and tried to murder two more. We can throw the race card in, but A HUMAN BEING KILLED ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.
December 1st, 2004 at 1:15 am
David, I get that. But why, why shoot some one? This I don’t understand. There are other ways to deal with things like that. So is every one going to start killing each other?
December 1st, 2004 at 1:15 am
My apologies…bad link. Reprinted in it’s entirety, without legal format.
STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUIT COURT SAWYER COUNTY,STATE OF WISCONSIN,
Plaintiff,
v. Case No. __________________
CHAI SOUA VANG, DOB 09/24/68 A/M, 810 4TH STREET, ST. PAUL, MN 55106,
Defendant.
CRIMINAL COMPLAINT
Your complainant, Gary Gillis, being first duly sworn on oath, deposes and says as follows:
COUNT 1: FIRST-DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
On or about November 21, 2004, in the Township of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, the above-named defendant, did cause the death of Dennis Drew, with intent to kill that person, by use of a dangerous weapon, to wit: a rifle, contrary to Wis. Stat. §§ 940.01(1)(a) and 939.63(1)(b), a Class A Felony, and upon conviction shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life. And further, invoking the provisions of § 939.63(1)(b), because the defendant committed this offense while using a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment for the underlying crime may be increased by not more than five (5) years.
COUNT 2: FIRST-DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
On or about November 21, 2004, in the Township of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, the above-named defendant, did cause the death of Mark Roidt, with intent to kill that person, by use of a dangerous weapon, to wit: a rifle, contrary to §§ 940.01(1)(a) and 939.63(1)(b), a Class A Felony, and upon conviction shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life. And further, invoking the provisions of § 939.63(1)(b), because the defendant committed this offense while using a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment for the underlying crime may be increased by not more than five (5) years.
COUNT 3: FIRST-DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
On or about November 21, 2004, in the Township of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, the above-named defendant, did cause the death of Robert Crotteau, with intent to kill that person, by use of a dangerous weapon, to wit: a rifle, contrary to §§ 940.01(1)(a) and 939.63(1)(b), a Class A Felony, and upon conviction shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life. And further, invoking the provisions of § 939.63(1)(b), because the defendant committed this offense while using a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment for the underlying crime may be increased by not more than five (5) years.
COUNT 4: FIRST-DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
On or about November 21, 2004, in the Township of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, the above-named defendant, did cause the death of Joe Crotteau, with intent to kill that person, by use of a dangerous weapon, to wit: a rifle, contrary to §§ 940.01(1)(a) and 939.63(1)(b), a Class A Felony, and upon conviction shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life. And further, invoking the provisions of § 939.63(1)(b), because the defendant committed this offense while using a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment for the underlying crime may be increased by not more than five (5) years.
COUNT 5: FIRST-DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
On or about November 21, 2004, in the Township of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, the above-named defendant did cause the death of Allan Laski, with intent to kill that person, by use of a dangerous weapon, to wit: a rifle, contrary to §§ 940.01(1)(a) and 939.63(1)(b), a Class A Felony, and upon conviction shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life. And further, invoking the provisions of § 939.63(1)(b), because the defendant committed this offense while using a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment for the underlying crime may be increased by not more than five (5) years.
COUNT 6: FIRST-DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
On or about November 21, 2004, in the Township of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, the above-named defendant, did cause the death of Jessica Willers, with intent to kill that person, by use of a dangerous weapon, to wit: a rifle, contrary to §§ 940.01(1)(a) and 939.63(1)(b), a Class A Felony, and upon conviction shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life. And further, invoking the provisions of § 939.63(1)(b), because the defendant committed this offense while using a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment for the underlying crime may be increased by not more than five (5) years.
COUNT 7: ATTEMPTED FIRST-DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
On or about November 21, 2004, in the Township of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, the above-named defendant, attempted to cause the death of Lauren Hesebeck, with intent to kill that person, by use of a dangerous weapon, to wit; a rifle, contrary to §§ 940.01(1)(a), 939.32 and 939.63(1)(b), a Class B Felony, and upon conviction may be sentenced to a term of imprisonment not to exceed sixty (60) years. And further, invoking the provisions of § 939.63(1)(b), because the defendant committed this offense while using a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment for the underlying crime may be increased by not more than five (5) years.
COUNT 8: ATTEMPTED FIRST-DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
On or about November 21, 2004, in the Township of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, the above-named defendant, attempted to cause the death of Terry Willers, with intent to kill that person, by use of a dangerous weapon, to wit; a rifle, contrary to §§ 940.01(1)(a), 939.32 and 939.63(1)(b), a Class B Felony, and upon conviction may be sentenced to a term of imprisonment not to exceed sixty (60) years. And further, invoking the provisions of § 939.63(1)(b), because the defendant committed this offense while using a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment for the underlying crime may be increased by not more than five (5) years.
THE BASIS FOR YOUR COMPLAINANT’S CHARGE FOR SUCH OFFENSES IS:
1. Your complainant, Gary Gillis, is an Investigator with the Sawyer County Sheriff’s Department and has been employed as a law enforcement officer for seventeen years and makes this complaint based upon his personal knowledge, information and belief based on his own investigation.
2. The defendant, Chai Soua Vang, DOB 09/24/68, has a last known place of residence of 810 – 4th Street in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
3. Your complainant, along with fellow deputies from the Sawyer County Sheriff’s Department, other law enforcement agencies, and Special Agents of the Division of Criminal Investigation, Wisconsin Department of Justice, have been assigned to investigate the shooting deaths of Dennis Drew, Mark Roidt, Robert Crotteau, Joe Crotteau, Allan Laski and Jessica Willers and the shootings of Lauren Hesebeck and Terry Willers. Your complainant believes the information set forth in this complaint to be truthful and reliable based upon complainant’s personal knowledge as set forth herein, as well as upon information and belief based upon statements of citizen/witnesses as set forth herein each of whom had personal knowledge of that which they related; information received from fellow law enforcement officers which information is believed to be truthful and reliable as the information was obtained in the course of the officers’ official duties; information received from Ramsey County Minnesota Medical Examiner (“Medical Examiner”) Michael McGee and Assistant Medical Examiners (“Assistant Medical Examiner”) Kelly Mills and Paul Nora, experts in the field of Pathology, who performed autopsies on the bodies of Dennis Drew, Mark Roidt, Robert Crotteau, Joe Crotteau, Al Laski and Jessica Willers; and statements of the defendant made to your complainant against his penal interest. The statements of Terry Willers and Lauren Hesebeck as set forth in this complaint were provided to Special Agent John Christophersen of the Wisconsin Department of Justice, Division of Criminal Investigation.
4. On November 21, 2004, which was the second day of Wisconsin’s rifle deer hunting season, at approximately 12:30 p.m. your complainant was dispatched to 394N Deer Lake Road in the Town of Meteor, County of Sawyer, State of Wisconsin, in response to a report of a shooting with multiple victims. After arriving on the scene, your complainant determined that Mark Roidt, Robert Crotteau, Joe Crotteau, Allan Laski and Jessica Willers were dead at the scene from apparent gun shot wounds. Your complainant also determined that Dennis Drew had been shot in the abdomen and was later advised on November 22, 2004, that Drew had died from his wounds. Your complainant also determined that Terry Willers had been shot in the neck and Lauren Hesebeck was shot in the shoulder.
5. Terry Willers stated that he and Robert Crotteau were co-owners of the property where the shootings occurred and that the property was the location of a deer hunting cabin which was being used by various family members and friends for the rifle deer hunting season which had begun the previous day. As Terry Willers was returning to the cabin from hunting that morning, and while carrying his hunting rifle slung over his shoulder, he observed an individual sitting in a tree stand located on the property. Terry Willers used a walkie talkie to communicate with other persons in the cabin and asked whether anyone was supposed to be in the tree stand. After being informed that no one should be in the tree stand, Terry Willers then approached the person, whom he described as an Asian male with a rifle, and told him to leave the tree stand and the property. Terry Willers then reported over the walkie talkie that he had told the individual, later identified as the defendant, to leave the property. Terry Willers then followed the defendant as the defendant walked down a trail.
6. The defendant advised your complainant that he was in the military from 1989 to 1991 and had qualified as a marksman and had hunted deer since 1992, including the vicinity where the events of November 21, 2004, occurred. The defendant also stated that on November 21, 2004, he became lost while hunting and came upon a tree stand that he climbed into with his rifle. About fifteen minutes later a hunter approached him and told him he was on private property. The defendant then climbed down and began walking away. As he was walking away he heard the hunter make a call on his walkie-talkie but did not hear what was said. Your complainant believes that this hunter was Terry Willers.
7. Lauren Hesebeck stated that after Terry Willers called back to the cabin, Hesebeck and Robert Crotteau, Joe Crotteau, Dennis Drew and Mark Roidt drove two all terrain vehicles (“ATVs”) to where Terry Willers and the defendant were located. Hesebeck and Terry Willers stated that neither Hesebeck, Robert Crotteau, Joe Crotteau, Dennis Drew, nor Mark Roidt brought any firearms with them. Robert Crotteau informed the defendant that he was trespassing, told the defendant to leave and used profanity. Robert Crotteau also stated that he would report the defendant to the Department of Natural Resources (“DNR”) and that maybe that would teach the defendant. Robert Crotteau then yelled out for someone to get the defendant’s hunting license number and the number was yelled out and Terry Willers wrote down the number on an ATV. The defendant did not reply to Robert Crotteau but continued walking. Terry Willers and Hesebeck stated that at no time did anyone touch the defendant, make any threatening gestures, or threaten to shoot the defendant. The defendant stated that the hunters told him to leave the property and used profanity and racial slurs. The defendant admitted to your complainant that he heard someone in the group say that the defendant’s hunting license tag number should be written down and that he also heard someone say they were going to turn in the defendant to a warden. The defendant stated that the hunters told him to “follow the ATV trail and get the fuck out of here and never come back.” The defendant also stated that the only person he saw with a gun was the person who first approached him in the tree stand.
8. Terry Willers and Hesebeck stated that after the defendant walked away no one followed the defendant and that Terry Willers began walking through the woods toward the cabin while the other individuals turned the ATVs around to head back to the cabin. Hesebeck stated that he looked back and saw the defendant about 20-30 yards away with his back turned doing something with his firearm and then saw the scope on the defendant’s gun drop off. Hesebeck then saw the defendant turn and point his rifle at Willers who was about 25 yards away from Hesebeck. Hesebeck and Terry Willers stated that at that point, Terry Willers unslung his rifle and held it in front of his body but did not point it at the defendant and yelled for the defendant to put the gun down and get out of here. Hesebeck and Terry Willers stated that the defendant then started shooting. Terry Willers stated he dived to the ground and heard one round hit near him and then a second round struck him in the neck and exited his shoulder and that the shot paralyzed him. Terry Willers stated that he then heard additional shots fired and saw Dennis Drew on the ground. Hesebeck stated that he jumped off the ATV and heard multiple shots and to his right saw Drew down and behind him saw Roidt down.
9. Your complainant has reviewed a provisional report of an autopsy of Mark Roidt performed by Assistant Medical Examiner Paul Nora on November 22, 2004. Dr. Nora’s report states that the cause of Roidt’s death of was a gunshot wound to the head. Your complainant has reviewed a provisional report of an autopsy of Dennis Drew performed by Medical Examiner Michael McGee on November 23, 2004. Dr. McGee’s report states that the cause of Drew’s death was a gunshot wound to the abdomen that entered on his left side.
10. The defendant initially told your complainant that he did not shoot any of the hunters. The defendant stated that the first hunter he saw who had a gun took the defendant’s gun and shot the others and then forced the defendant to walk to each of the bodies. The defendant later changed his story.
11. In the defendant’s second version recounting the incident, he stated that he walked about 15 to 20 yards away from the other hunters and turned around and saw the man who had a rifle walking toward the other hunters, take the rifle off his shoulder and take it into his hands. The defendant stated he then heard someone yell, “What did you say?” The defendant stated he replied, “I didn’t say anything,” and the other person responded, “I saw you give me the finger.” The defendant stated he again replied that he didn’t say anything. The defendant stated he continued walking about another ten yards when he looked back again and saw the man with the rifle pointing the rifle at him. The defendant states that he then dropped into a crouch position and the person shot at the defendant but missed. The defendant then removed the scope from his rifle and shot twice at the man with the rifle who dropped to the ground. The defendant then saw the other men run toward the ATVs, which had gun cases, and he thought they were going for guns. The defendant stated he then started to shoot at the men near the ATVs and saw two or three more men fall to the ground. Your complainant personally examined the ATVs at the scene of the shooting and observed that none of them contained any guns, gun cases, or gun racks.
12. Lauren Hesebeck also stated that after Terry Willers, Drew and Roidt were shot, he attempted to hide behind an ATV but the defendant appeared at the ATV and shot at him three times as he scrambled around the ATV and that the third shot hit him in the shoulder. After being shot and collapsing, Hesebeck heard additional shots. Hesebeck pointed out the area where these additional shots originated to Agent Christophersen. Agent Christophersen stated that the location was in the area of where Robert Crotteau’s body was found, approximately 40 yards away from the ATVs. Hesebeck stated that he then heard additional gunshots and pointed out the area where these shots originated to Agent Christophersen. Agent Christophersen stated that the location was in the area of where Joe Crotteau’s body was found, approximately 467 feet away from the ATVs. Your complainant states that there were no firearms found near the bodies of either Robert or Joe Crotteau. The defendant stated that he saw a man running through the woods toward the cabin yelling for help and ran after him and shot at him two or three times. The defendant stated that the man was not armed but that he thought the man was going for help or a gun. The defendant stated that when he was about 15 to 20 feet away from the man he shot him in the back.
13. Your complainant has reviewed a provisional report of an autopsy of Robert Crotteau performed by Assistant Medical Examiner Kelly Mills on November 22, 2004. Dr. Mills’ report states that the cause of death of Robert Crotteau was a single gunshot wound to the lower back. Your complainant has reviewed a provisional report of an autopsy of Joe Crotteau performed by Medical Examiner Michael McGee on November 22, 2004. Dr. McGee’s report states that the cause of death of Joe Crotteau was multiple gunshot wounds. The report further indicates that Joe Crotteau was shot four times, all shots entered from the back.
14. Hesebeck stated that after the defendant shot him he began to provide first aid to Terry Willers and Drew and used a walkie-talkie to call back to the cabin stating that he had been shot and needed help. Carter Crotteau stated to Special Agent Jody Wormet, that in response to the call for help he left the cabin, unarmed, on an ATV. On the way he picked up Brandon Willers who had been hunting and was armed. With the assistance of Hesebeck, Brandon Willers and Carter Crotteau removed Terry Willers from the area. The defendant stated that he heard someone call on a walkie-talkie, “We’ve been shot and need help.” The defendant stated he observed three men approach on an ATV and stated that they were all armed with rifles, so he did not shoot at them. As the men approached, the defendant stated he turned his reversible coat from orange to camouflage and reloaded his firearm.
15. Carter Crotteau and Brandon Willers stated that on their way back to the cabin with Terry Willers, they were passed by another ATV being ridden by Allan Laski and Jessica Willers, who were heading toward the scene. Hesebeck advised officers that after Terry Willers was removed from the scene, he heard another ATV approaching the area and then heard more gunshots and the ATV stopped. The defendant stated that he observed another ATV approaching with two people and that the driver had a gun on his shoulder. The defendant then began to run and the ATV drove past the defendant and stopped about 10 to 15 feet away from the defendant. The defendant stated that the people on the ATV saw him and one man removed the gun from his shoulder with one hand while he kept his other hand on the ATV handlebars. The defendant stated that he then shot three or four times and both people fell off the ATV onto the ground. Based upon your complainant’s personal examination of the scene, the two persons described above were Allan Laski and Jessica Willers, whose bodies were found lying at the edge of an ATV trail 50 to 60 yards away from the scene of the original shootings. Based upon your complainant’s personal examination of the scene, there were no firearms located near the bodies of Laski or Jessica Willers. Hesebeck stated that there were no weapons on the ATV.
16. Your complainant has reviewed a provisional report of an autopsy of Allan Laski performed by Assistant Medical Examiner Kelly Mills on November 22, 2004. Dr. Mills’ report states that the cause of death of Allan Laski was multiple gun shot wounds. The report further indicates that one shot entered his lower back, one shot entered his mid-back, and the third shot entered his right buttock. Your complainant has reviewed a provisional report of an autopsy of Jessica Willers performed by Assistant Medical Examiner Kelly Mills on November 22, 2004. Dr. Mills’ report states that the cause of Jessica Willers’ death was multiple gunshot wounds. The report further indicates that there were two gunshots to the back of her body with one entering her upper back and the other her left buttock.
17. Hesebeck also stated that after hearing the shots after the second ATV approached, the defendant appeared near his location and the defendant stated something to the effect of, “Fucker’s still alive.” Hesebeck stated that prior to that he had obtained Terry Willer’s rifle, and after the defendant’s statement he dived behind a dirt hill. Hesebeck also stated that after making the statement the defendant fired once or twice at him and that Hesebeck shot at the defendant once, after which the defendant turned and ran away. The defendant stated that after shooting the two people on the ATV he started running back to the area of the original shooting and saw one of the men still standing and that the defendant then yelled, “You’re not dead yet?” The defendant states that he then shot one more time in the direction of the man but did not know whether he hit him or not. The defendant stated he continued to run down the ATV trail.
18. The defendant stated that after the events described above he ran away and did not return. He also stated that at one point he decided that he did not want to shoot anybody else so he threw his remaining ammunition into a swamp. The defendant further stated that about an hour after throwing away the ammunition, he heard an airplane overhead and thought that the plane was looking for him so he decided to turn himself in.
19. Your complainant has reviewed a report of DNR warden Jeremy Peery that reflects that during the afternoon of November 21, 2004, he was involved in searching for the defendant. During the afternoon Warden Peery was informed by Darrell Gass that while hunting he met an individual he described as a Hmong wearing camouflage and carrying a black rifle who stated that he was lost and asked how he could get to a road. Your complainant has reviewed a report prepared by Deputy Jeff Cain which reflects that he was advised by Walter Cieslak that he was hunting near Serly Camp road when the defendant appeared wearing camouflage clothes and a rifle slung on his back. The defendant advised Cieslak that he had been hunting, was lost, and asked for a ride. Cieslak offered to drive the defendant to Cieslak’s truck. Cieslak also stated that when they arrived at his truck they were met by a DNR warden who took the defendant into custody. The defendant stated that he came across a hunter with an ATV and asked him for a ride to the road and that the hunter drove the defendant to the hunter’s cabin where a DNR warden was waiting.
20. Warden Peery’s report also indicated that after dark an ATV driven by Walter Cieslak with the defendant therein, pulled up to his truck. Walter Cieslak stated, “This guy is lost, can you help him?” Warden Peery then placed the defendant under arrest and seized a black SKS semiautomatic rifle which the defendant was holding and was later determined to be unloaded. Warden Peery also stated that the defendant complied with his commands but never made any statements and seemed extremely calm.
Your complainant, therefore, prays that the defendant be charged and dealt with according to law. Dated this _____ day of November, 2004.
GARY GILLIS
Subscribed and sworn to before me this ____________ day of November, 2004.
ROY R. KORTE
Assistant Attorney General
Special Prosecutor for Sawyer County
State Bar No. 1019492
Approved for filing this ________________ day of November, 2004.
__________________________________
DONALD V. LATORRACA
Assistant Attorney General
Special Prosecutor for Sawyer County
State Bar No. 1011251
December 1st, 2004 at 1:15 am
dana you cannot obvoiusly read correctly…remember u’r english classess when u type publically…….i tld u I was no god but in self defense if someone tried to kill me and if i had a gun i would shoot back too…u’r prbly white and if you are some other kind you are definitely too damn white washed…sorry to say tht’ts my honest feelings…get offended if you have to…..i never said tht killing 6 people is okie….i said tht if i walked away not knowing how many of your white friends had guns but one shot at me i would shoot back just like you would shoot me and my friends if we shot at you and u didn’t how many of us had guns….either u die or i die…what do u think…pluz u ain’t go time to reprt to authoriy u’r life is one the line…i’m not saying if u read corrclty it was tht right thing to do, all i’m saying tht hmong people don’t kill for fun..especially an older hmong man like vang….my father too is vietnam veteran and he is a seroius man and doesn’t mess around but i’m sure if someone shoots at him he would shoot back…like i tld u before..either u die or i die..u speak so much about common sense where’s ur’s…i’m sure u’r too stpid to understand tht they had to prvked a hmong man more tht just call him names….it’s takes and dummy to do that…especially people like u….if it’s that hard for u to understnd…i will say this again since u don’t understand…i belive vang should get life in prison but i also know a hmong man only shoots as self defense…this is no shooting spree…he admits he did it but as self defense…there’s no way out of it for him but it is the principle…..is it that hard to understand…see people like u make things like this hard u knoe?
December 1st, 2004 at 1:33 am
But thats the point we dont’ know who shot first!! Hello don’t you get that? I can say that I knew those while people and know that they would never say or do anything like he is claiming they did. But you can’t say that! You don’t know every one and what they will do. How do you know he didn’t just loose his mind at that point in time! And you have made me mad, that I can now say that people like you(hmongs or what ever you are) are the dumb asses that should respect other peoples land! If you did things like this never would have happend. And why is it that you think you are so much smarter then the white people? Look at your spelling sure doesn’t look that great to me!
December 1st, 2004 at 1:34 am
My apologies. A previous post gave an incorrect link. Try this and search: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/news
December 1st, 2004 at 1:34 am
i feel like i talking to a child…i prbly am…but everyone read the context of our 2cnts when we type now if u have a question or want to insult….insult the correct way plz
December 1st, 2004 at 1:38 am
Racism lives in the minds of narrow-minded people. Racism also sells the news and magazines. I said it before and I will say it again: A MAN KILLED ANOTHER MAN! What difference does the race, religion, creed, color or ethnic background amtter? People were killed over an imaginary line on a map.
December 1st, 2004 at 1:43 am
Thank you for that comment Scott. Why are people not getting that?
December 1st, 2004 at 1:44 am
dana i happy that i have offended u cuz it’s called ebonics retard and for u’r infomation i’m not hmong….boy u are retarded i’m sorry child…u cannot read…i’m telling u tht hmong people r not as crazy as u dana…that how come majority of crimes are involved with white people and this time headlines have hmong in it but the whites are right again…..of course other races make headlines but tht’s becuz they are minority just like the hmong….u hear of the clans and the hmong gangs and the hispanic gangs there all the same….but this is something totally difrnt….i bet u if a white man killed 6 hmong people it would of made headlines in the back of the paper…that’s rite not the front remember that…..i remember tht white guy in WI that ate tht laos boy…but who’s care rite?
see dana u don’t know too much….u must understand and i know u cannot accept this that hmong people don’t kill for fun….besides u white people started the ate crime…
December 1st, 2004 at 1:51 am
u’r right scott to me race, religion, whatever u r has not matterd this to me till this happned u realized how much white people in wi hate hmong cuz hmong, in wialot of hmong peeps have money and that the retired white people are selling their land to hmong people…..so hmong people are moving in ….cuz they luv the country rite….so the white then also blamed the hmong for the other white people moving out of town…i bet u guyz don’t know much….i’m not trying to be narrow minded but i will repeat hmong peeps did not kill for fun….u’r rite a man did kill a man and i know it was self defense cuz like i said hmong people don’t kill unless threatned….i know it was not rite for him to kill those people but u must understand he traind to do so and to defend his life…i understand tht does not justify anthing but put u’r self in his shoes..what if someone shot u and u knew they hate u’r race….speaking of racism….how come in the articles…no hmong person has attacked a white person verbally and the whites alredy started…
December 1st, 2004 at 1:57 am
For the love of god I would hope no one would ever kill for fun! And I am not saying that Vang did, but are you? And did I not say what ever you are? Guess you can’t read! Oh and by the way this is not a cell phone chat! Type out your words so people can understand you! And I can’t say that I am crazy, and I am sure other people that have read things on this would think that I am not crazy or retarded. Put I do have to say that I am being a dumb ass wasting my time with you!
December 1st, 2004 at 2:05 am
dana it’s upsetting to hear u claim u’r self a dumbass…but ill agree with u…i will not kill like u trashy white kill, but i will defend myself.i know u’r still reading dummy…i never said tht this was a cell phone chat only u did…but i hope that vang will get a fair trial….i know he is to go to jail for killing cuz it’s not rite but the principle again is that if was self defense….why is that so hard for u to understand i forgot u must be white….i rest my rest my case ……
December 1st, 2004 at 2:08 am
and pluz dumb dana read back on 132 u said hmong what ever u are…how stupid can that be..i’m out
December 1st, 2004 at 2:13 am
I don’t know what your problem is but you sure have one! And I can guess that any one who reads the things that you have wrote will say the same. You can go on with your bad self thinking that white people are just so bad.. I think that you have a little growing up to do…
And as far as the cell phone deal.. Then can you not spell words out or what?
Your the Dummy! I hope one day something like this comes close to your family,In your home town, only then will you understand!!!
December 1st, 2004 at 2:21 am
hahah i knew u’r dumbass was still reading got u again…..i don’t kill i have a family…and pluz i’m sure u’r just about 17-22 u’r still too young to understand anyhting..honey i’m alot older than u…r u having problems reading abb. wrds sorrie u can’t read that way u’r prbly didn’t finish shcool either….i never hoped anything this bad would happend to u’r family but since u hoped it on mine..lets not hope the hmong people don’t do vudoo on u after reading this….hahahah see u later
December 1st, 2004 at 2:25 am
G you are so funny! Whats with the comment I don’t kill I have a family? I have one too! Who ever said any thing about you killing?
December 1st, 2004 at 2:30 am
By the way get a life!
December 1st, 2004 at 2:35 am
Kevin, its people like you that make us white folks look bad. You should be approached face to face with Chai Vang and see who shoots who!!
December 1st, 2004 at 2:36 am
i bet u’r family exists of trash 1 trash 2 trash 3 rite dana dana….i have a family means i would avoid of putting myself in that sitaution like vang….dana is u’r computer rated for u to get on sites like this u seriously do not understand anything i stated, i understand my opion offended u by that i’m sorrie to say i got thru u’r thick head ….white head i should say….if u read commnt 132 u said i was hmong which i’m not …you stated what ever u are…i’m sorrie u can’t sound out letters to make a word for short….but u are seriously taking this offensively…i’m sorry u can’t accept my opion but you’ll have to live with it….i know it’s hard cuz u’r young and dumb…but tough…
December 1st, 2004 at 2:38 am
i am not against white people at all, well i take it back but dana and those peeps in WI…i have many white friends …..but everyone obviously can see he was discriminated tht’s the whole point…..
December 1st, 2004 at 2:46 am
damn dana you such a R.N.I.W.T. you said you know them, that their good people. alot of people knows vang too and says he a good man. if he wasn’t a good man then why the F**K did he served for this damn F**Ken country? did those whites serve their country? so you have no right to say who is good and who is not, because in a way their all good people. everyone has a good and a bad side to them. so tell, who’s the good one? i bet it’s the white folks cause your white. like i say earlier this country is not a color-blind sociaty yet, mostly like that town. tell me, who is at fualt here, the one that was doing the self-defensing or the one that fire the first shot? i know it was wrong of him to fire at everyone but tell me R.N.I.W.T., come on tell me. to me, i think both partie are at fualt. ask yourself this. what would you have done if it was a group of hmong hunter shooting at you. what would you have done R.N.I.M.F.W.T.B.? kill or be killed? would you judge you action right then or would you judge it later? fire back and ask questions later? you would of just done the same thing. you claim not to be rasicm but you sound like one. you be telling digusted by white folks to learn how to spell and write clearly but your the one that needs to get the spell checker. it’s no wonder you think the way you do.
December 1st, 2004 at 2:55 am
amen to steven….shiet….. i’m sure if i typed “r” everyone ones that mean “are” cuz if u’r like dana u wounld’t…well steven that’s what happens with little white girls are spoiled rotten by their hunting red neck dad…they walk across this country as if they own every thing…i am grateful for everything i have…i don’t have anything against anyone but dana the cracker and those racists white people in Wi…..it’s a shame tht if this case is lost the racists people in WI will win again ……
December 1st, 2004 at 3:21 am
let’s just hope that the american justice system works. if not, you’ll be sure hells gonna break loose. why can’t R.N.I.W.T. just learn to accept minority and blacks. what’s so hard about that? you whites be telling hmongs to adopt your ways but you can’t even atleast try to learn their ways as will. people who can’t accept people of color shouldn’t call themself an american. ask yourself this, is there any people of color living in that small town beside those hecks? if there were, are they still living there?
December 1st, 2004 at 4:06 am
I just don’t understand why people can be helpful to other when you see someone lost in the wood or somewhere, all u have to do
is asked him nicely or help him get out. I would be scare too if 6 or 10 people surrounding u and called u all name and shoot at u
I would react the same way, unless of course there is more to it
December 1st, 2004 at 6:12 am
This message is going out to Dee of Rice Lake. My name is Bee and I also live in the Central Wisconsin Area. Yes, I am of Hmong descent and of all the news that is flying around, I just want to start by giving my condolences to the friends and families of the victims. What Chai Vang did is non-excusable and has served as a disgrace to the Hmong community.
I really felt a greater understanding after reading your column based on your perspective and I agree with some of your assessment. Just like you and the others around us, I am also trying to begin a new life here. You see, I am also from a very diversed community in California but living here in Wisconsin for the past ten years has given me reasons to assume that there are “racism” between certain groups, no matter what color of their skins are. I agree that we as human beings have good and bad people that are within our communities. I also believe that in order to bridge this gap within our communities, we need to come together in order to better understand one another.
I really don’t know what to say in order to temper the pain or anger of the friends and families of the victims who might be feeling right now; except that I am greatly sorry for their losses. I also know that my apologies won’t bring them back. Although I speak for myself and no one else, I hope that people will understand that a time of change is upon us and for the sake of argument, i just want everyone out there who is reading this to know that if we are to make a difference, then we need to act as a whole and not as seperate communities.
December 1st, 2004 at 7:08 am
Dana, I do not condone mr. Chai Vang action. However, some color folks (ie, native americans, east asian, southeast asian, south asian, black americans, hispanic, middle eastern you get the picture) can’t take it anymore and they snap!!! As a result, incidence like this happen. I wanted to say to white folks who are none racist to educate their fellow white folks who are to be more tolerable and respectful of people of other cultures and ehnicities . Also I wanted to tell white parents to teach their children to be more accepting and respectful of people of other culture and ethnicities. Otherwise, incidences like these will happen again (Folk like Kevin and Scott above might be the next victims) Danna, I wanted to tell you a stories. When I was in junior high on my way to the public library, I saw two lille kids possible between 6-8 years old. They saw me and imediately calling me derogarory names like ching!!!Chong!!!!gook!!!!. I say to myself these little kids are brave, because I can certainly can snap them in half, mine you I was at the time in the 9th grade. The point is kids that young need to be taught by their parents to be respectful of other peoples otherwise they grow up to be like (kevin and Scott above). Anyway I told these two little kids not to call me name otherwise i would hurt them. Immediately, out from the corner of the library came their mom. She said to me “why don’t you take on someone your own size and stay away from my kids”. I said to her, mem if you do not teach your kids how to behave appropriately in front of people of color someday someone not as nice as me will hurt them. Right then, she wanted to call the police. I said to her, “mem the phone is right there why don’t you call the police right now!!!” Then, she hush away. Danna, this type of incidence is a daily occurance for people of color. I think white folks think that they are the majority (thanks to the asian exclusion acts and many others subtle exclusion act for other people of color) that they have the right make fun of them for kicks and the right to claims every piece of land in America belong to them. Anyway, it unlikely that mr. Chai Vang will get a fair trial in an area that is exclusively white (possibly there will be an all whites jury)
December 1st, 2004 at 7:51 am
The Great Free America Hype.
I believe the Hmong came to America with a free country in mind. But it turned out that there are more to it than meets the eyes. There are fine prints everywhere. I’ve been told that ignorant of the law does not excuse someone from breaking it. It is impossible to know every law, rules and regulations out there. I expect that someone will let me know every time I have broken a law that I have broken the law. The Hmong people came here because we thought there are justice and civilized people here, not like communist countries. However, some people here demonstrated exactly the opposite. Is “Free Country” just a myth? Is it when everybody is free, nobody is free?
The early settlers took over the Native American’s land as though it was the Native’s fault that they got mobbed because they were here first. Nowadays the woodland owners blame on the new settlers that they got mobbed because they are here last. It is as though some people in this country thought they were God sent to own the land. I guess not every man are created equal.
When a group of people think they are a better race and cannot see beyond the color of the skin then there is going to be a problem. Respect is what it is all about. There is only one race, the Human Race. Beyond the color of the skin, we all have similar flesh and blood and brain.
In Laos, the Hmong people treated every white man with utmost respect and quality. We treated a white man with more respect than our local leaders. Eventhough what we had to offer was not as good as what he could get at home, still it was our best effort.
Sorry, I kind of got out of track a little bit. I guess what I really want to say is that we are not as free as we thought we could be.
Another thing I want to say is that perception is everything. when things don’t happen the way we perceived to be then we feel it is wrong. Bottome line is that we cannot draw conclusion without having all the facts. People make wrong judgements and wrong assumptions because the lack of all the facts.
December 1st, 2004 at 8:18 am
All i have to say right now is what Sandy said was enlightening, well thought out and I applaud her. I’ve wrriten about 5 comments previouly so im going to make this one very clear no big words just some simple thoughts no ones has brought up. My thought process will be based on the assumption that most of what Chia Vang said is true. Im sorry guys But Chai Vang right or wrong, bottom line is when your in the middle of the woods confronted by numerous men who outnumber you, curse at you beligerently, and shoot to scare you if that really is as the case may be, you will react. Some men may have tucked tail and run, some less skilled men might have shot back missed and had the hunters chase him down and kill him in what they would have eventually claimed to be self defense of course. You know the more i think about it, why is it everyone assumes even if the white men shot first, that they were only shooting to scare? Is that a gurantee they were shooting “to NOT kill him”? Maybe they were just bad shots. Comon now guys logic dictates that men who surround you, curse angrily at you, then fire a shot at you as your walking away, those are acts of hostility. And the law does state that you are allowed to defend yourself with lethal force if lethal forced is being used against you and you feel you are in imminent danger of lethal bodily harm. If you look up any fire arm legal codes it will tell you if a man is shooting at you and you truly beleive he is trying to kill you and you have a gun you are allowed to shoot him back. Its not a definte the white hunter didnt shoot to kill. Hes not a proffessional marksmen in which case his shooting abilities may have not been up to par with Vangs, and when he shot to kill Vang in a rage he simply missed Vang and hit dirt. Vang may have been the more effective killer as he was trained for years in the “US” military. In any case if we are to presume that the reason Vang shot and killed is becasue he is a pure devil(evil incarnate), isnt it just as reasonable an idea and statement to say that those men tried to kill Chai Vang but were not as effective at a gun battle as he was..he was of course a trained military man. I know some of you will react badly to what i have just said but really think about it? If what Chai Vang said is true they shot at him first, he may have beleived it was a shot not close to him becausee they were just horrid shots, and better to shoot back and defend himself before more shots rained upon him from the outnumbering odds of the belligerent white men he was going to have to engage and fight? If he truly thought this then isnt it better to shoot back and defend yourself then die in vain…correct? Im sorry but this whole story and hypothesis of the sequence of actual events just seems too one sided to me. Yes the end result is one small asian man killed sixwhite men. But who is to say that one asian man was the only one in this tragic incident with the intent to kill. If the white hunters really were the ones who shot fisrt, logic would dictate that Chai Vang simply reacted as he was trained he returned fire, and disabled the enemy. Whether he used excessive force i agree is a definate possibilty but that is another subject that deserves its own seperate posting. Chai Vang was a soilder and in war soilders are taught the rules of engagnement, i know this is civilized society, but bottom line is he was shot and and he returned fire. In time of war he would have been a hero, who prevailed and achieved victory through greatly outnumbered odds. Im sorry i am white but bottom line is i have a hard time beleiving that it is a fact Chai Vangs intentions were “bad” and the white hunters were “good” simply because they are now dead. Bottom line maybe Chai was just a better shooter and more adept gun fighter then the causcasian gentlemen were. Maybe if he had not reacted the way he did he would not be here right now. If it is a possibily Chai Vang is a cold blooded murderer it is also just as rational a possiblty those white men were cold blooded murderers, both sides exchanged gun fire just one side ended up winning and one side all shot to hell and dead. Who shot first remains to be seen and i truly beleive that should be the deciding factor in whether or not Chang loses his livlyhood. The way the media is portraying this story im sorry but under any other circumstances I may have beleived the hunters, but Chia Vang isnt getting a fair shot here. And seeing how the media delivers this story proves my point further. Justice has to be blind to race and color the rules have to apply to everyone or it can not rightfully be called justice. It more like justice if your the appropriate skin color. That first shot if it is true the white hunters shot first, could have potentially been followed by a fury of gunfire leaving Vang the deceased is this story. Im sorry but if the Media and law enforcement are goign to cruicify Vang before the results of the investigation come to light then i am willing to play devils advocate here if it can bring light to another perspective i havnt heard stated yet…. if that is what you perceive me as after stating my hypothesis. The thing is everything i said is pure speculation but guess what Vang is right now being torn to pieces by the local media and local communities through pure specualtion, This is American and MR. VAng deserves the right to a fair trial and a chance to defend himself. I pray for a fair, swift and speedy trial for both parties involved god bless you. And another thing for all you racist hicks do you realized that alot of Hmongs in America today are here as a direct result of their part in aiding american in the secret war against cummunism in the Viet Nam war. They were granted Visa to America because of there aid to help fight the war for a free world, for an American cause. We really are quick to forget things when its not convenient for us to remember….
December 1st, 2004 at 8:28 am
And one more thing Vang only saw one gun. He never said he knew all of the other white men were unarmed. In his statement he says when he was initially surrounded he only saw one gun drawnout and “Clearly”. The thing is the others could have had hand guns tucked under their belt. And the last two men he shot Vang clearly states that he did see them with firearms.
December 1st, 2004 at 8:32 am
And im sorry but i have a hard time beleiving that a group of 8 avid hunters who go out into the wilderness with the intention to shoot deer only bring “ONE” gun with them. So are they all supposed to share one gun? Or is it they all had their guns but they failed to bring them to a confronatation….in the wilderness with an supposedly dangerous and armed asian man when the call for help went out on the CB. Sounds fishy yes?
December 1st, 2004 at 10:17 am
You know “Deliverance” was a good movie. Had Vang not shot back when he did maybe he would be buried in behind a tree stump right now and raped to death by those racist name callign hicks! You know everyone is saying what gave Vang the right to kill, If its true the white guy shot first..let me be the first in this forum to say “Who the fuck elected you Executioner to shoot a man trying to leave peacefully and incite a horrible incident you idiot inbred F*ck, you deserve what you got if you shot first, and you asshole you casued the death of 5 other people who probably didnt deserve to be shot down liek a dog like you deserved you fuckin hillbilly f*ck!!!” Im sorry if my grammer was a little bit off in that last quote, i got a little bit heated. Im sorry but there is just too much ignorance in this room. Its a scary thought that the people in this room actually have the power to cast a vote and help in the election process of our president…the leader of our supposed free world… Scott and Kevin are probably inbred hill billys and be careful guys, people do reap what they sow. For the rest of you good, compasionate, god fearing, “INTELLIGENT” people I hope this incident raises an eyebrow for you. Something has to change or im sure this will happen again. And from what i know of Hmong people they generally seem alot less nasty then the racist inbred dipship hillbilies i have encountered in the mountains. And one last time let me state the obvious…America is a melting pot…if you are not Native American you are not indigenous to the US. We are all on the same boat here…..So yes if you tell everyone to go back where they came from then the only people left in the us will be indians. Damn you guys crack me up. The level of stupidy in some of these comments amaze me. How do you people hold jobs? Well i guess somebody needs to cook my curly fries when i go to Jack n The Box. Oh well to the rest keep up the kickass comments…you guys make some very valid points…
December 1st, 2004 at 10:27 am
Sandy i think your comments kickass can i be your friend? I dig intelligent well spoken people it reaffirms my faith in humanity, and the possible progression of our free world into a more civilized place to live. I hope the rest of these inbred dipshiet can raise their children properly and maybe help cultivate an environment why stupid trigger happy hillbilly dip shiets dont go off starting shiet will military trained asians and get their shiet shot off anymore…thats as straight forward as it gets…peace
December 1st, 2004 at 10:48 am
Victor, it’s no use. Some people cannot project. Some people cannot ask, what if it was my brother out there? What if it was my mother? Even if they were trespassing, is it acceptable for them to be threatened or treated inhumanely? Wouldn’t we want the trespasser, accidental or intentional, to be treated humanely by the owner as we would want the trespasser to treat the owner the same. If not, people would be dying left and right during hunting season. To have an exchange that would be easily resolved is to have pleasantries and to assume the best of both sides. Not to assume the worse. Dana, seems to think that everyone here is assuming while she isn’t. We’re just bloggers trying to understand why, and hopefully she takes the time to not only read but strive to understand what others have shared here. Her exchange with Lilly is just so revealing and sad.
So what if he was trespassing? Hunters do it all the time. Some white guy recently slugged an older white gentlemen land owner. The DNR deals with this all the time. Apparently according to all reports, he was asked to leave and he was leaving without incident. What happened afterward is the question? Right at that instant what happened? All we know is that people died for what? A tree stand? It’s not that simple I don’t think. This is where race becomes a potential issue? Was the situation exascerbated by Chai’s nationality? Was he fearful, at that crucial juncture, was he threatened? Common sense says, that even if he may have been leaving peacefully, that the owners weren’t just glad for that.
Victor, if some people can’t think three-dimensionally, then trying to open their minds is useless. Think about this, after the shootings the Hmong community was quick to condemn Vang. They also suggested that Hmong hunters refrain from hunting for the rest of the season for fear of retribution. Why is it the white hunting community hasn’t addressed this? Why hasn’t the hunting community asked, now why would you be fearful of retribution? What have we done to make you feel so? If the hunting community is so inclusive, and so full of comraderie, then why is their no response? The answer is simple. The answer is what is at the heart of the anger, the animosity, the potential reason why the situation may have escalated. I’m not even going to spell it out. Its not a justification, but could be a crucial explanation at that split second. Vang will pay for his crime. People died. People with families, people who were loved, people period. But, if people like Dana refuse to even broach the heart of the exchange (the law just doesn’t look at the end result but the events that led to it) all signs point to continued incidents, even more so now. I don’t understand how people say race has nothing to do with it, then say you Hmong watch your backs. Idiocy. Come on people, race did not give him a free card to kill, but stop fighting what’s blaring and just admit it more than likely exascerbated the situation! The DNR knows this, and have tried to work with the Hmong (not whites sadly) for years!
December 1st, 2004 at 10:51 am
I am quite amazed at several of the comments provided by some here. I am a landowner in the fine state of Wi. and have had to deal many many times with trespassers. It doesn’t matter what race these violators are.
The main point that many may not realize is that there are some cultural differences that exist between Hmongs and their current home. I am an avid hunter (and many would even condemn that) and scout deer hunting possibilities by using trail cameras to attempt to pattern certain deer. Many many times I have had pictures taken of tresspassers on my posted land. Several times these have been Asian people (I won’t say Hmong because I can’t be sure) Their culture makes it difficult to comprehend PRIVATE PROPERTY – KEEP OFF. Mr. Vang could clearly speak and read English but it didn’t seem to matter to him. If you read the police report AND Mr. Vang’s statement it is clear that he killed in cold blood. But what matters is what the jury will say in the end. Get off the racism BS and let the courts handle the situation based on evidence. It appalls me that some always seem to reach out and grab the racism crutch for nearly everything. I know what happened mostly as my close friend lives in Rice Lake and he personally knows several of the people murdered. There is no cover up so let the courts handle it.
December 1st, 2004 at 10:55 am
Victor, you’re name is befitting. Peace, man. All we have is hope, friend.
December 1st, 2004 at 11:12 am
Rick: “grab the racism crutch” As a hunter, you can’t deny that this has not been a bomb waiting to explode. No one here feels sorry for the guy, or think he didn’t know he was trespassing, but property rights is not the sole reason here. Him going crazy for no reason, is not the full explanation. What one good thing that comes out of this is that other issues that have popped up year after year, have now come to light. Lets address them humanely and with open-minds. Not pull out the age-old white guy response “grab the racism crutch” thing. Come on, thinking people know the world is not black and white, good or evil, its a gray mess.
Just read comment 162.
December 1st, 2004 at 11:28 am
although i’m not i’d rather be an inbred hillbilly with my head coming out of my ass than one of you. disgusted and victor- you’ll boodie buddies or what, two of the stupidest people i have ever talked to.
December 1st, 2004 at 11:51 am
Rick you sound like semi-intelligent guy. So Im not going to be the one to rip into you but… let me just do my best in a civil manner to help correct you sir and maybe help shed some light onto your statement.ie- “If you read the police report AND Mr. Vang’s statement it is clear that he killed in cold blood” The Police report in no way states that he killed in cold blood. No where does “Chai” say he killed those men in cold blood. I can only assume and i may be wrong, that you dont have a legal background, legal training and/or experience, or have ever been through a thorough discovery process of a case like this. The police report is not that black and white and yes i have read it many times. At this point his statements and actions during the incident are all VERY still open to interpretation and debate. And yes, hopefully they will all be addressed properly in trial. Thats all i will say on that topic for now. Have to go to work. Sandy is cool!
December 1st, 2004 at 12:06 pm
Actually Kevin your pretty stupid there bro. Cause i have never talked to you. And honestly i wouldnt want to. We wouldnt have anything to talk about, I dont know anything about your pig farming or sheep raping, just not my thing. And Kevin you talk a big game mother F*cker. But i bet in reality your a low end redneck who likes to voice his opinions on anonymous and forums and it makes you feel good about yourself that someone actually HAS to read and listen to your idiotic responses. Its understandble since in real life mostly likly you clean up our offices and i know its sad that no one really repspects the public opionion of a low end red neck janitor. Its cool bro hopefully in the next life time god will bless you with half a brian which is half more then you have right now. And you never knwo bro with your personalty maybe you’ll be lucky enough to run out in the forest talk shiet to an asian and get your shiet shot up. But it might be a blessing for you dude casue in the next life like i said maybe you get half a brain, and you might come back as something better then your self now…like a piece of sh*t or something. Its ok man maybe in the next life time you will get more hugs and less of those “Special” ones from your dad…
December 1st, 2004 at 12:18 pm
My bad Victor, I embellished a bit on the cold blood. All he admitted is that he shot them. My bad. And BTW…… I do know the legal process but mostly in the Labor Law arena. Thanks for reminding me not to do the same things others are on here….Enter personal feelings and add to the facts.
December 1st, 2004 at 12:19 pm
Every one PLEASE read 131
December 1st, 2004 at 12:22 pm
Please don’t talk to Kevin that way. He only understands, succinct sentences and monosyllabic words. It’s not nice to pick on the mentally retarded.
December 1st, 2004 at 12:26 pm
thats funny lily
September 16th, 2005 at 10:01 pm
[...] Owen tells us that Chai Vang, who I blogged about quite a bit, is guilty on six counts of first degree murder. This post of mine has some comments from those in the area after it happened. [...]